Voice #1 - Bilal: "Turning Shame into Submission: A Married Man's Quiet Struggle"

What happens when your halal environment feels like your haram environment? When the place that should feel safest—your mosque, your community—becomes a source of struggle? This is just one facet of the profound journey Bilal shares in this deeply moving episode.
 
Bilal, a married Muslim father from Australia, takes us through his lifelong experience with same-sex attraction (SSA), from the first confusing feelings as a young boy to reaching absolute rock bottom as an adult. With raw honesty, he describes clinging to the Kaaba during Umrah, begging Allah to take these feelings away, and the moment when, sobbing uncontrollably on the side of the road, he surrendered completely to Allah's will.
 
The transformation began when Bilal discovered resources that helped him understand his experience not as an identity but as a test from Allah—one he was uniquely equipped to handle. Through building healthy masculine friendships, working through shame, and addressing childhood wounds related to his emotionally distant father, Bilal found a path forward that honored both his faith and his reality.
 
Perhaps most powerfully, Bilal shares his experience as a husband and father while navigating SSA, offering practical wisdom for others considering marriage. His ADHD diagnosis adds another layer to his story, highlighting the complex interplay between neurodivergence and sexuality that many in similar situations experience. Throughout it all, Bilal's message remains clear: acceptance doesn't mean surrender to desires, but rather acknowledging this test from Allah while focusing on the broader purpose of life.

Chapters

• 2:50 Opening remarks
• 5:50 Early beginnings and struggles
• 22:11 Frustration at the Muslim community
• 31:46 Breaking point followed by divine openings
• 40:51 Giving and receiving support
• 48:06 Healing and recovery
• 1:05:20 Self-awareness and dealing with triggers
• 1:07:55 ADHD and neurodivergence
• 1:18:23 Realizations along the journey
• 1:23:50 Reflections on marriage and family
• 1:40:41 Take-home messages
• 1:43:53 What would you tell them if you had the chance?
• 1:52:20 Ending remarks

Transcript

 Waheed:2:50

Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, and welcome to a new episode of Voices from Beyond the Rainbow. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and with this episode, we begin our series of interviews and stories for the season. My guest today is my dear friend Bilal, who is joining us all the way from Australia to share with us his story. We talk about shame and pain and reaching a breaking point. We talk about healing and community and forgiveness and working through shame and building healthy masculinity. We also discuss ADHD and neurodivergence, as well as marriage and raising kids. There are lots of gems in this episode, and I hope you enjoy it, inshaAllah. 

Assalamu alaikom, my dear friend, how are you doing today?

Bilal:3:47

Wa alaikom assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. Alhamdulillah, I'm well, thank you, how are you?

Waheed:3:52

I am doing very well. I'm very excited about today's episode. Thank you for joining me. This is one of the very first episodes to be recorded, so I'm very, very excited. There's so much that we're going to talk about today, and I feel like a lot of what you and I have been discussing with regards to your episode resonates a lot with the audience, so I'm pretty excited to hear what you have to say and for people to inshaAllah listen to the wonderful gems that you have prepared for us today.So, before we start inshaAllah, would you mind briefly introducing yourself to the audience?

Bilal:4:29

Absolutely. InshaAllah. My name is Bilal, I live in Australia, I'm a married man, alhamdulillah, and I have kids, and I look forward to doing this podcast with you, because I feel like it's needed and necessary to pay it forward. And, inshaAllah, this will be a benefit to whoever's listening. I just want to very loudly say that you're not alone, and we're all here to support each other, bi‘ithnIllah (God willing). And I hope that you are able to benefit from this and continue to pay it forward to other people that may surround you as well.

Waheed:5:12

JazakAllah khair, absolutely wonderful. Yeah, so when you and I were kind of discussing the themes that you wanted to talk about during this episode, we kind of went back and forth with regards to all sorts of different things that happened in your life. The flow today is going to be very chronological. You wanted to talk about how things were and how things have progressed throughout the years, ending with where you are right now and all of the lessons that you've learned along the way. So I guess I will give you the chance to speak now. The floor is yours, and we'll take it from there, inshaAllah.

Bilal:5:50

InshaAllah. Alrighty, let's start. Bismillah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon the Prophet PBUH. (Arabic duaa: “My Lord, expand for me my chest, and ease for me my task, and untie the knot from my tongue so that they may understand my speech”; Quran 20:25-28). So, where it begins is from childhood, I would say. I remember, when I was a young boy, that I had, you know, these attractions towards older male figures, I would say probably around the 10-12 year old mark, I would say, which, at the time, subhanAllah, like, if you think about it now, like you know, I can probably remember that it wasn't something that was typical, you know, I knew that it was something unusual to have attractions towards, older males, but at the time, I did recognize that, when I was roughly 10 to 12 years old, that I had these feelings towards older men.

In hindsight, I think a lot of that is attributed towards my dad not being emotionally available, I guess, because of maybe cultural upbringings or his own, you know, life that led him to be that way. And I felt that when, obviously, puberty hit, I felt these urges intensify and, as you know, things become sexualized when you hit adolescence, and I had developed this crush towards one of my male teachers. Subhanallah, from then, you know, you realize to yourself that this is not typical, this is not normal. And you know why do I have these feelings towards the same gender?It's you know, and you internalize all of these feelings and you think to yourself is there something wrong with me? Why am I unusual? Why don't I like girls as much as other boys do? But you can't really help that, subhanAllah. And you know, I would sort of try to play along and force myself to, you know, be on the other team, um, you know, it was all just a show, really, just to sort of fit in. So, subhanAllah, over the years, some of these, you know, attractions grew and grew and um, uh, you know it was very internal, it was a very silent struggle, subhanAllah. And over the years they kept intensifying and reaching to the point where, as you grow up, you mature, your mind matures, and you also realise that you know, Islamically speaking, this is haram, this is, you know, it's not something Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wants for you.

So throughout my years going into young adulthood, um, I would build up these feelings of shame and,  you know, low self esteem because of these feelings that I had absolutely no control over. Because it's not something you can switch on and off, you know, it's something you can't control, it's beyond you, subhan Allah, it's never been anything that you can control. Yeah and I'd so desperately wanted to be “normal” at the time. I believe I had, you know, a low level of opposite sex attractions, I would say, and I think that's what gave me the motivation, you know, despite the fact that I had these strong urges towards SSA (same-sex attractions), I was really determined that this is not going to be who I am, despite how I'm feeling, you know. Because other than obviously the hormones and the attractions, for myself, I truly wanted to be married. I wanted companionship, I wanted to have a family. It was something organic in me that I really wanted.

Waheed:10:06

And you knew that from a very early age, that you had that in you.

Bilal:10:09

Yeah, yeah, absolutely,  because, alhamdulillah, I've got a strong family. I love my parents, I love my dad, I love my mom and my siblings and you know, alhamdulillah, I'm very fortunate to say that I had a pretty typical upbringing, and I wanted that for myself. So that's what drove me to keep persisting that I wanted to get married. But also, the cost of SSA was intense shaming, you know intense recurring thoughts of “What's wrong with you? You're less than others. You're not typical. Why do you have to be like this? You know, why can't you be normal and like girls, like others? Why can't you be one of the boys who have girlfriends or what have you?”  Despite the fact that you know, alhamdulillah, I actually never desired to have a boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, because I knew that islamically it wasn't the right thing to do. So, alhamdulillah, I'm very happy that I was brought up that way.

Waheed:11:20

In terms of the shaming. Just to clarify, this was all kind of internal self-talk. No one was talking to you that way, it wasn’t someone else, I mean from within your vicinity, correct?

Bilal:11:28

No, no, absolutely. I mean, I didn’t disclose this to a soul, my entire life, subhanAllah. Not until maybe five years ago, until, you know, I discovered the podcast and the Discord server and everything else. But no, absolutely not. I kept this to myself, which made it all the more harder. You know, it was really really difficult not being able to disclose this to anyone because of fear of being isolated. And you don't want your identity to be exposed as the person who's gay. Because back then, you know, that's what you would be called. You'd be called gay, and that was something that I refused to be identified with. It didn't align with my beliefs islamically. But at the same time, we're caught between a rock and a hard place, like we have these urges, subhanAllah, and these attractions, but it doesn't align with our islamic beliefs.But on the other hand, those urges and attractions box you into the LGBT agenda, which I refused from the get-go to be associated with. So, subhanAllah, it was a very difficult dichotomy; where do I belong? So it isolated me even more, to the point where I struggled alone and couldn't disclose this to anyone for the reasons that I just mentioned. And from there, I kept suppressing that, I kept pushing that away as much, as much as I could, because I was determined that I'm going to get married, and I'm going to prove to myself that I can do this, which is what motivated me, to you know, to get engaged. And from there I really tried my best to direct all of my attention to my fiance at the time. 

Waheed: 13:18

How old were you at the time when you got engaged?

Bilal:13:20

About roughly, I'd say, mid-twenties. Some other people might think this is really risky. You know, why would you do that to yourself? But at the end of the day, I think a person knows if they're capable of marriage or not. You know, um, and I believed I was capable, because I was really determined. Honestly, for me, determination was the key motivating factor for me. Um, that I wasn't gonna, you know, let this (SSA)  beat me. It was just, uh, stubbornness, I'm a really stubborn person when I want to be! And subhanAllah, I made dua to Rabb al-Alameen (Lord of the Worlds) to help me along the way and to give me the strength that I needed. Obviously, there's highs and lows. There's certain days where you feel great, you feel like you can do this and you can get through. But there's lows, because you can't talk to anyone, there's no one you can vent to. In your daily life, you see people that are attractive around you and then, subhanAllah, in that moment, for me anyway, I would shame myself, like, “What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you looking at this guy? Why is he physically attractive to you?” And other days I'll be like, “Yeah, you've got this, you're engaged now, you're going to get married, you're going to prove to yourself you can do this.” 

And, mind you, I was really careful, like I didn't just choose anyone.Obviously, I have my criteria for who I want to be married to. You know, like she obviously has to be a good Muslim, our characters are compatible. You know you treat her as if you know anyone else who is “non-SSA” or straight, and I stuck with what I wanted from a wife. So she's a good Muslimah, she's coming from a good household, she has good adab (manners), she has respect, which is a big one, by the way. Respect is super, super important in a marriage. And from there, I got married, and alhamdulillah, Allah blessed it for me.

Waheed:15:47

Alhamdulillah. So, if you can backtrack a little bit, you were growing up, and you're basically telling us about the shame narrative that was playing in your mind for a very long time, that you know “Why is this happening to me? Why can't you be like other men? You're not good enough!” and all of this kind of self-flagellation, correct? You know, we've spoken a lot about this in A Way Beyond the Rainbow, that when there is shame, and this shame narrative just keeps on going and going and going, it gets too much, and with all of the suppression of emotions and not being able to speak to someone, we are going to kind of resort to coping strategies or coping mechanisms to be able to diffuse a lot of this pain or shame, right? So would you mind elaborating on that? What were your coping strategies at the time?

Bilal:16:37

Okay. So coping strategies… Look, it was difficult, it was really difficult. Um, I would say I will try my best to stick to, you know, my prayers and making sure that I'm making dua to Rabb Al-Alameen to make it easy for me. Um, and you know, regardless, I made sure I was praying always, you know, on time and I wouldn't cut any prayers. And, uh, there's this… unfortunately a lot of us tend to resort to looking at things online that you shouldn't be looking at. So, none of us are angels. We're all sinners. And, subhanAllah, Rabb Al-Alameen reminds us, if we weren't sinners, He would create another creation who were sinners so they can repent and come back to Him. And when I did slip in any way, shape, or form, I would feel intense regret about it and I would feel bad. So I always try my best to make sure that I repented every single time, and that was a key factor that probably kept me going was that, no matter what I did that was sinful, I would always ensure that I repented, even if it felt futile, where you felt like you're just kidding yourself and you're kidding Allah (audhubillah - I seek refuge in Allah) that you're making fun of repentance by keeping on doing it. But you learn to realize eventually that humans are very fallible, and we are prone to falling. Now it's not an excuse to keep falling into the same sin, because it's all about your intention. You need to intend that you're not going to repeat the sin. Even if you fall into it a thousand times, you still keep making the same intention over and over again and sincerely, you can't kid yourself. You have to keep that going, because the moment you stop repenting, then it's your downfall. Rabb al-Alameen is only going to keep extending to you His forgiveness. It will always remain open; I know that from Rabb al-Alameen, but it's less likely if you keep ignoring the repentance aspect of coming back to Him. And if you keep repeating those sins, it's going to eventually blacken your heart, and it's going to be really difficult for you to come back.

So, to summarize, I would always ensure that I would repent. I would try to get myself back on track. I would involve myself in the masjid more, I would involve myself with friends. Basically, I tried to keep myself as busy as I could to prevent myself from getting into any bad behaviors. And the fact that I kept myself busy was good, because it kept you focused. It keeps you free from idle time, because if you've got a lot of time and you're not knowing what to do with yourself, you've got to find something sinful to do, especially because you don't have an outlet to express things in the right way. So I kept myself really busy. I was working, I was studying, and I think that's what kept me going.

Waheed:20:03

Yeah, absolutely so. As the saying goes, one of the proverbs is “Ile hands are the devil's workshop”, right? So if you don't busy yourself with good things, then the devil's whisperings are going to get to you and you'll find yourself doing things that you'll regret later, subhAnallah. And one thing that you also mentioned with regards to tawbah (repentance). I think this comes up a lot in our conversations for people in the recovery community, for people who are trying to overcome all sorts of addictions or problems, you know the idea that “I am trying my best, but I keep falling.” The answer always is, you know, no matter how many times you fall, just keep getting back up.Go back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala immediately, because one of the things that Shaytan loves to do is to distract you away from tawbah, to tell you that you are beyond tawbah, that nothing you do is ever going to be good enough, and it just further fuels the cycle of shame, right?Thatno matter what you do, you're going to keep falling. So why do you even try to begin with, and why do you even make tawbah? Because you're such a hypocrite, you're a phony. No, this is very important. I mean, what you mentioned, jazak Allah khair, is extremely important. No matter how many times we fall, whatever we do, it doesn't really excuse the sin, I mean, it's not a green card for you to just do everything that you want, but at the same time, you're trying your best and you're human, you're fallible, you find yourself doing.. You fell, immediately get back up, repent to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and just keep moving forward.

Bilal:21:22

Exactly and what I also found was you know, I would force myself to give charity, even if I had no money, you know, so doing something like that makes you accountable as well, and we know that Sadaqah (charity), you know, extinguishes our sins as well. So if you find yourself struggling by repeating the same sin, you need to give charity every single time. Even if you have no money, you give what you can. Even if it's just a dollar, you just give it, and that will help, inshaAllah.

Waheed:21:55

Alhamdulillah, excellent pieces of advice. Jazakallah khair. 

So um, you were also telling me, like before you got married, that that kind of frustration and the pent-up anger and pain, particularly at the Muslim community and at the way that the shuyukh spoke about homosexuality and related topics. You know there was a lot of frustration and you ended up writing kind of an anonymous post.

Bilal:22:32

Yeah.

Waheed:22:33

You recently shared that with me. Would you mind kind of reading it for the audience?

Bilal:22:38

Yeah, absolutely. SubhanAllah, which I wanted to get to that point as well, like it's back when I was growing up, it was really difficult, because you would hear all these slurs from your friends around you “this gay, so-and-so,” this, you know, “let a brick wall fall on him” you know, and you kind of attribute that to yourself, because, even though I didn't act on anything like that, you know, but you felt like it was personal, and the fact that sheikhs were so out of touch about this issue, like it was all swept under the rug. I had emailed so many sheikhs, so many different sheikhs, anonymously, from you know, an email that they can't track me on, because I was terrified of exposing my identity. I couldn't talk to anyone, and you just get typical responses, or even sometimes no response at all, they'll just ignore you, maybe because they don't know how to deal with it, Allahu a’lam (Allah knows best), but you get responses like “Be patient, be patient and just lower your gaze and get married.”

But to me that wasn't a solution, you know it's like okay, but what do I do? Like am I being sinful for having these thoughts? I couldn't even get a fiqhi response to that, which, alhamdulillah, we know now that it's no, you don't, um, you don't get any sin for having these desires, because they're out of your control, and it's only a sin if you act upon them. And that's the crux of the issue. Back then I had no idea, because there was literally nothing that pointed me in that direction, and I don't believe there were any resources about that until the past four to five years. I remember there was a seminar about homosexuality it was in person by a sister who organized this in another state, and I was so desperate to go to that. But I thought to myself, “How can I go to that and be there in person?” People will know who I am, you know, so I just felt cornered.

So, Subhan Allah, I ended up just venting my frustrations, because I was so angry and I was so frustrated with, you know, the community and the sheikhs and everyone out there, because no one could give me any answers. So I found this Facebook group online, which is, you know, for an Australian community, and I decided to, I think something on there triggered me at the time. You know, there was some sort of a slur against Muslims who identify as gay, even though I didn't apply that to myself, but I felt that it was really personal to me. So I decided to share a bit of my struggle and to give them an aspect that they haven't heard of before. So I'll read it now to you.

Waheed:25:35

Yes, please.

Bilal:25:36

“Assalamu alaikom, I am messaging this anonymously due to the obvious reasons you will find out as you read on. I've witnessed multiple times people's views on homosexuality and Muslims. Many of us express disgust, condemnation, and anger. You see, it is rare for instances like these, Muslims who are struggling with this, to express their opinions due to fear of their identity being exposed. I feel the need to do this, as I am sure that there are others like me who are struggling silently, alone, and extremely frustrated whilst our fellow Muslims are painting us with a massive brush, who are stigmatizing, judging, and being disgusted by us. Know this: I did not choose to go through this. None of us did. It just happened and, subhanAllah, this is the fitnah (test) that Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, has chosen to test us with. You have absolutely, absolutely no idea what it feels like to go through this, to feel trapped and have a constant burn inside you that feels like it is eating you up alive. I know it is wrong. I know it is meant to be filthy, but I have tried.

I got married to combat this. I have kids, I go to the masjid, I pray and fast. I even went to a Muslim psychologist for a long time. Heck, I've been to Hajj and Umrah several times. I even prayed Tahajud at times in the middle of the night. I clung onto the doors of the Kaaba begging Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to take this away from me, but this did not happen.

You're probably thinking, “Hang on! A practicing Muslim who has homosexual tendencies?!! Shock and horror! Astaghfirullah!” Yes, I am a practicing man with homosexual tendencies. However, I have not committed the actual sin. But, by Allah, I have tried. I have even gone to the extent to ask other sheikhs for their fiqhi opinion as to what I should do, because I am surrounded by men at the masjid, but I cannot get a straight answer. I've been told I need to avoid masjids where I feel this way, but this does not work.

Before you pass your judgment, no, I do not feel the urge to pounce on every Mo, Ahmed, or Bilal, but imagine this: If you were the only male and had to pray amongst many young females, how would you react? Sure, you would lower your gaze for the first 1, 2, 10, 20, or even 50 times, but there's only so much you can do when those females look at you, hug you after Salat, because they miss you and want to catch up. So, yes, I feel isolated and alone, as I feel trapped in my surroundings. I feel like my halal environment is now my haram environment, so it's left me limited socially. It eats me up inside and I feel an incredible betrayal, especially towards my wife, who has done nothing wrong. I cannot tell her, it will crush her. 

There's no one I can confide in except Allah. I am alone with Allah. He knows my internal struggles and he knows I have no one else to confide with.

Alhamdulillah, after struggling with this for decades, I've come to the realization that this is my fitnah in life. This is my jihad al-nafs (struggle against oneself) and this is what Allah chose to test me with. Some days are good. Some days are really bad, like today. I've clung to the door of the Kaaba asking Allah to help me. At times, I've made dua to Allah to take my soul away before my desires get beyond control. I do try and direct that towards my marriage, but it only helps so much. So, please, the point of this is don't pass your judgment on all of us and condemn us to hell. By Allah, only He knows our struggles. Rather, make dua for those who have strayed to come back. We have an illness like alcoholism, lying, anger, pride, greed, or gambling, just like you. Yes, all these sins are very different, but we are all human, and we all have weaknesses accordingly. Just thank Allah that you are not tested with this, as it is a lifelong struggle in every day of my life.”

Waheed:29:51

Wow, mashallah. That is an amazing post. Jazak Allah kheir for sharing that. I can imagine how emotional that must have been, you know at the time. So did you get any responses to that post?

Bilal:29:59

Oh, my goodness. Um, by the way, before I get to that, obviously a lot of those words now I feel very differently about, because of the new concepts that we have now, such as SSA and the like. But, yes, and to my utmost surprise, I received so many messages of support. I received many responses such as “you've hit me right in the feels,” “We may not roar as loudly as others do, but we are with you” and you know, subhanAllah. They even said “Imagine your ajr (reward) in Jannah for having such a daily trial, and I can't believe, I wouldn't be able to cope with something like this.” It was just really validating to feel that people were accepting that, because I honestly expected a lot of homophobic words and things like that and shaming and what have you. But it was really comforting to see that.So I remember at the time, I was crying tears of joy that I at least felt heard, even though it was anonymous, I felt heard you know.

Waheed: 31:05

I can imagine.. And that was the first time that you kind of, even anonymously, were able to kind of disclose that part about yourself and that was the response you got. So I can imagine how uplifting that must have been at the time. 

Bilal:31:18

Alhamdulillah, and it helped me hang on for a little while longer.

Waheed:31:23

Yeah, absolutely. It just goes to show how much communal support and understanding to people who are really struggling goes a long way. Just imagine if an anonymous post really made a difference, so just imagine how much our community can actually play a role if they truly understand the nature of the struggle. SubhanAllah.

Bilal:31:46

Exactly. Yeah. So after that, you know, I was just living my life and just going on with my you know, with my daily life, and I remember reaching a breaking point in my life where I thought that's it. You know, I can't, I can't deal with this anymore. So I had, you know, just finished work, I was going to the gym straight after work, like my regular routine, and I don't know what it was, but, subhanAllah, maybe something had triggered me, because it would have been subconscious at the time. I wasn't really thinking about anything, I wasn't triggered in any way that I knew. But I was on my way home in my car and I just felt this overwhelming sense of, you know, “I can't take this anymore. This is too overwhelming, I don't know what to do with myself.” And it was truly rock bottom for me. I began to just cry uncontrollably, and I've never, ever cried in this way before, because it takes a lot for me to get to that stage. I really do. But I was crying and sobbing so uncontrollably that I had to pull to the side of the road, and I was thinking to myself “What's wrong with me? What's going on?” I started to hyperventilate, and I was sobbing so hard, and it reached a breaking point for me at that moment. And I realised that this was my rock bottom. This is it. And I felt like there was no worldly relief for me anymore, because I was so exhausted. I had exhausted all other avenues without exposing my identity, because I couldn't risk that.

So, at that moment I realized that it was just Rabb Al-Alameen and I, and it was just me and Him. So I made dua to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and I complained to Him that this is it. I have reached rock bottom. I had no one else to turn to except Him. I remember saying at the time that I'm tired, I'm exhausted, and I'm utterly defeated. And I also didn't know if I could continue in this life, because I feared that if I would betray His commands and fall into sin, that I would just spiral out of control. So I made dua to Allah that I wanted Him to promise me that if I was going to do something I was going to regret, I wanted Him to promise me that He would take my life away, because I didn't want to die knowing that I'll be falling into sin and reach the point of no return. And that was truly a profound turning point in my life, and it was just - I was defeated. That was it. 

So, subhanAllah, maybe a few weeks later, I received a very unexpected answer to my dua. I was searching online and I came across an article written by Yousef Salam on Muslim Matters, and that article led from one thing to another. My Allah reward him immensely.

Waheed:34:56

Ameen. Big shout out to Brother Yousef!

Bilal:34:58

Yes, rock on man! Alhamdulillah, you mean so much to everyone. May Allah bless him. His article had fundamentally changed everything. It changed my line of thinking. It had broken down so many obstacles and beliefs that were ingrained in me, because, as you know, I found myself caught in between the LGBT and Muslim communities, without quite fitting into either of them, because I don't identify myself as gay but, at the same time, islam teaches that acting on homosexuality is a major sin. So, this dichotomy had chipped away at me and it reduced my self-worth at an exponential rate, which led to the decline that I just mentioned.

But his article helped me understand that I didn't have to choose between associating with being gay and rejecting that whole concept completely. Rather, there's a new definition, that I'm a Muslim who experiences same-sex attractions and I'm simply being tested by Rabb Al-Alameen. Look, to be honest, it did take me a long time to internalise this, because you've got to consider, there's years of saying to yourself: “Where do I belong? Who am I? What is my identity? Why am I experiencing these attractions?” But I can only speak for myself, and I can say that I'm at ease with this now, alhamdulillah, I've reached the point of acceptance from a while ago that this is a test from Allah. This is a test from Allah, and after a lot of self-reflection and doing the work, building my self-esteem, and seeing a Muslim psychologist, and eventually unlearning a lot of these core beliefs led me to where I am now, alhamdulillah. 

Which leads me to the podcast. Waheed, you have no idea how much you've changed my life. May Allah reward you for every single minute of every second that you spent doing this podcast, like alhamdulillah. May Allah reward you and keep you steadfast and keep your intentions pure, because it truly changed my life completely.

Waheed:37:19

Jazak Allah kheir, I really appreciate it. It wasn’t me who was doing the work. Allah was doing all of the work. Alhamdulillah. So…

Bilal:37:24

That's right. That's right, you know. And that's all the difference. The fact that you said that keeps us on the right path, inshaAllah. This is all a test from Rabb Al-Alameen, and we need to please Him. So, anyways, the podcast really delved into the details of the struggle and trying to unpack a lot of this: The origins of it (SSA), understanding what may lead to it, just understanding it, you know, was really helpful, because unpacking all of that you know, dealing and healing from the self-shame and hearing other people's stories, how to deal with the desires, and what may lead to them, you know, for example, your talk about the HALT triggers was amazingly helpful for me. HALT is hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I'm very consciously self-aware. Before, I would never, I was never capable of finding out why and what led to these urges, you know.

Waheed:38:26

Just to kind of clarify to the audience, those who are not familiar with the HALT acronym, this is something that is used in the recovery community whenever someone feels a sort of emotional or sexual trigger, to kind of just take a moment to pause and to ask themselves using the HALT acronym, which literally means stop, but like H-A-L-T as in hungry, angry, lonely, tired. What could be the reason why I am experiencing what I'm experiencing right now. To try to unpack that, maybe to talk to someone or to journal about it, or to just take a moment of self-reflection and meditate on that, to kind of allow that kind of trigger to dissipate once you understand where it's coming from, as opposed to it kind of taking its hold on you, and you to kind of feel paralyzed by it.

Bilal:39:08

Exactly, exactly, because a lot of us find ourselves in that position. We feel paralyzed, that we're in the same cycle all over again, you know. But the podcast was very practical, because it gave me the tools that I needed to do the work. Honestly, I couldn't help myself. I was binging that podcast morning and night, you know, because I was just in a hurry to get there. I wanted to get there to the point where I was healing.But just a word of advice, like whoever's listening to the podcast, really, you need to pace yourself, because you can obviously overwhelm yourself if you go too quickly, and it happened to me, um, so just take your time, do the work, uh, you know, and do it at the pace that you're able to and you'll get there. You can't rush this. You'll know, you'll be able to know when you're starting to accept a lot of these concepts and unlearning a lot of these old ways about yourself. It's a journey, you know, and it still is a journey, subhan Allah.

Waheed:40:13

Absolutely. I think that this is very important. A lot of people kind of want to get to the end result as quickly as possible, and it really doesn't work that way. Nothing in life works that way. If you take shortcuts, the end result is not going to be what you want it to be. You need to invest in yourself, and it's all about baby steps. This is what we always mention in the recovery community: Baby steps, one day at a time. What's important is that I'm better than the person that I was yesterday, or a couple of weeks ago or months ago. This is what matters, and move at your own pace, with whatever you can digest at the moment. Jazak Allah kheir for the reminder.

Bilal:40:41

Wa iyyakom. The Straight Struggle server was also an immense sense of relief, because just simply knowing that you can connect to other people who share your struggle and just simply knowing that they're just out there was a huge relief. It really felt like a big weight was lifted off my shoulders, because I truly understood and realized that I wasn't alone. You know, because I felt alone before. When you can't talk to anyone, literally not a soul, it really isolates you. So, alhamdulillah, like it was really liberating to know that, yes, you actually can connect with other people who struggle with you, and you make friends with these people, and you can connect with them, and you realize that you can help each other. So, alhamdulillah, it was really great to just have a sense of support from friends that you've made from that server.

Waheed:41:46

So that was basically the first time in your life where you connected with people who shared the same struggle with you, correct? 

Bilal: 41:53

Yes, that's right. 

Waheed: 41:55

And how did that feel for the first time? Like you went into the server and you're talking to men and women who experience same-sex attraction from around the world. How was that for you, coming into that the first time, what do you remember?

Bilal:42:07

Very exciting and very relieved. You know, it was a big sense of relief. I got to the point where I was just joining the server morning and night and, you know, before work, after work, whenever I had a free moment, it was just wow. You know, I can connect with people who I can relate to. That alone is very healing in itself, subhan Allah, and it was just, yeah, very liberating, subhan Allah.

Waheed:42:44

Subhan Allah, and that's why we got to know each other. We've known each other for the past, I've been thinking about this, for the past five years, subhan Allah.

Bilal:42:52

Yeah!! Isn't that crazy? Subhanallah. We've been friends for five years now. Absolutely.

Waheed:42:58

Time flies, man! Subhan Allah.. But mashaAllah, yeah, that's quite exciting, and you've been able to make lots of kind of long-term friendships along the way, and not just to kind of, you know, receive help, but to also support others on their journey, particularly you know, brothers who want to get married or who are thinking about getting married and they are maybe struggling with idea or they are in a state of marriage and they are going through their ups and downs.MashaAllah, you've also been able to, you know, share your insights and also kind of help them through that, and to also show them that they're not alone. We all struggle with that, whether married or not. We all have our own fair shares of stuff, but you know we can get through that.

Bilal:43:40

Yes that's right, alhamdulillah. Because we share the same struggle, it's important to realize that you don't want to also synergize weaknesses between each other, because I've heard that that's a problem as well. So it's very important. You've got to keep yourself in check. We need to remind ourselves that this is  a platform that Allah has given us access to, and we can't abuse that gift from Allah. So it's important not to synergize any weaknesses between each other, and the boundaries remain the same. You know that we are Muslims who experience SSA, and we need to understand that that doesn’t allow us to behave in certain ways. So if you don't use that gift correctly, then you're kidding yourself. You're actually not going to be able to heal properly. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is not going to give you the means to recover properly, if you don't have those boundaries in check.

Waheed:44:47

Correct. And I think for those listening for the first time and maybe who are not directly involved, so what you're talking about is like crossing certain boundaries, because obviously people are coming from all sorts of you know different backgrounds, or they're coming from all over the world and they find this community and “Wow, it's amazing! I'm here and I'm making friends!” There are some people who are advanced on their healing and recovery journeys, others are very early, I mean quite at the beginning, and a lot of people are young, and so, you know, misunderstandings are bound to happen, and sometimes people cross certain boundaries which are not supposed to be crossed. But you know, this is what generally happens. So there's that part. 

And also, I think what you are also alluding to is the idea that sometimes what tends to happen is some sort of trauma bonding between people, because people have their fair share of baggage and trauma, and people in the SSA community are known to have a high level of dependency and codependency tendencies, and so that tends to kind of show up. I think you know these are things that people will learn about in due time.I'm not saying, “Oh, just watch out!” It's kind of, we need to have that sort of balance, like we don't need to go into any of these extremes, like be completely lax about that or kind of be super paranoid. I think there's kind of a balance to be struck when it comes to these topics, and I think that once you go into these support groups, there are those “elders” or people who are quite advanced in their journeys who can guide you in this process. And I think it's very important for people to be vigilant about these things, because with any support group, there are going to be issues that will come up, and I think the best way to go about this is to navigate this within that community, and to help each other with that.

Bilal:46:42

That's exactly right, yes. So the fact that you know I was able to understand the difference between being gay and having SSA, and understanding yourself in a better way was really helpful. And speaking to others in the group also gave a lot of practical advice, because you hear points of view that you know, you haven't been through yourself and it was really helpful that you would gain tips from other people to help apply in your life as well, and you would also do the same for others. So it was a fantastic opportunity to be able to connect with a lot of people that you can just be open to, and there's no judgment. That alone was really great, because you're not going to get judged by people who go through the same thing as you, so you're able to share a little bit more about your struggles to get to where you need to be, so, alhamdulillah. 

Waheed:48:06

Alhamdulillah. Wonderful. So you've shared with us your early struggles and how, subhanAllah, there was shame and pain building up and a lot of frustrations, and ultimately there was a breaking point and, alhamdulillah, Allah answered your duaas through an article and then access to a lot of different resources. So, if I were to ask you Bilal right now, where he is and with all of the knowledge and the experiences that he has gained, can you share with us how all of these resources have helped you unpack a lot of that baggage and what you have discovered about yourself, where you are in terms of your own healing and recovery journey? What gems and lessons can you share with us?

Bilal:48:49

Okay, there's a lot to unpack there, isn't there? So, for me, understanding, you know why not necessarily why, but as in my childhood patterns and how this led to SSA for me, was important, because I wanted to ensure that I was connecting the dots between my childhood and now, to basically fill in the gaps, to help me to heal, because I felt the need to do that. Once again, though, this may not apply to everyone, you know, everyone's got a different journey, so everyone's got to apply what is, you know, workable for themselves.

But, for me personally, I found that I was developing attractions as I was a young boy to other male figures, because I didn't get what I needed emotionally from my dad. He's not a very expressive type, he's a very, you know, quiet type, you know, which is a very typical um Arab thing, I think, and probably across other cultures too, that's probably also, you know, a generational thing too, I'd say. So I realized that I was craving attention from other males who I found attractive, because, for me personally, it was because I didn't get what I needed from my father himself. He tried his best, and I know that, alhamdulillah, I really do know that he tried his best, but he, for me, wasn't really the emotional type, so he didn't express himself. He was a man of very simple words, very few words. He barely talked. So for me, I was craving that attention. I needed a male figure to hug me, to kiss me, to give me words of encouragement, to be there for me. And that, for me, was really important, because that was a missing part in my life, and I tried my best to sort of, you know, grab his attention, but it wasn't really happening. So that eventually led to being attracted to other male figures who were giving me attention, and that ended up being sexualized because, you know, that's just how it was.

So, for me, I started to build a lot more friendships with other guys, because I did have difficulty doing that when I was growing up, because of the self-shame and, you know, having these unwanted attractions, etc. So I felt like I needed to fill those gaps now to help me to heal better, and to demystify a lot of these attractions, and to understand that you know, a lot of these can also be unmet needs as a child as well. So I actually challenged myself where I found that if I was, you know, playing sports with a particular colleague, and I found that he was a really attractive person, rather than going to my usual behaviors where I would, you know, find him physically attractive and shame myself and, you know, go on and on about that, I would actually just see him for who he is, I would understand him more, I would ask him questions, I would get to know him better. I would eventually realise that he's just another guy. You know, he's like me. He's married, he's got children, he's got his own struggles in his life. He's no longer a person I see as, you know, idolised, or you know, this person is sort of unreachable because he's so attractive. It's really demystified him, because I actually took the time to get to know him better, and that helped immensely for me personally. I don't struggle as much with physical attraction anymore, because I've gotten to know who he is as a person. 

So that's one aspect. And the other aspect was also building up my self-esteem and confidence and things like that.So I took the time, and I really worked on myself a lot. I never used to like to go to the gym, because of fear of falling into sin by looking at other men. But I built the courage to push through that and become resilient and understand through learning everything that I had, you know, went through, the podcast, and everything else, that it's okay if you find someone attractive that you see, you know, in within your circle, you can just simply admire that attractiveness and move on and not necessarily sexualize it. You get to know these people, you demystify them, which was an important thing that I learnt from the podcast. It didn't always work, but it worked most of the time I'd say. But you've got to push past it, you know. You've got to learn that there's boundaries that you have to push. Otherwise, you're not going to grow and you're just going to keep being stuck in the same cycle. And I was really sick of that cycle. I just wanted to move on and keep growing myself as an individual. 

So, yes, I go to the gym. I would be in an environment where it was difficult sometimes, but I pushed through, knowing that I had these resources under my belt, I pushed through anyway. So that gave me confidence, because I started to embody, you know, these characteristics that I used to seek in other people. I became attractive myself, for example. I would build up my own masculinity. I would try to embody that within myself and realize that I am good enough. I embody these masculine qualities, and I need to believe that for myself. So what I was looking at in other people I was trying to apply to myself. So I would improve my own self image. I would fix things that I thought that I could fix within my capacity, and I did do those things. And, with time, they definitely helped. You know, that was really helpful.

Plus, eventually, along your journey, you realize that SSA can control you, like it used to in the past, or you can choose not to give it as much attention. And I really focused on that. I thought to myself “I'm going to stop making this the focus of my life. It's not going to control everything that I do day in and day out.” So I would just reduce it in my mind. I would say “It's just a part of me. Yes, I can't control it. Sometimes it's uncontrollable, where I would have highs and lows, but I will do what I need to do to sort of curb that away.” And, alhamdulillah, I have a very loving wife and she's amazing and I consider her my best friend.I look forward to seeing her every day. So, if I ever felt some, any urges, you know, like hormonally or otherwise, I would direct that towards my marriage, and that would help immensely. Because if you give in to those desires, and you do something you're not meant to do, you're just taking 10 steps back, you know. 

But back to what was also contributing to my SSA, because I felt the urge that I wanted to really delve into that properly, which may not be for everyone, you know, because you've got to see if it applies to yourself or not. But for me personally, you know, as I mentioned, my dad wasn't emotionally available. My mom was also quite overbearing as well, like she was quite overprotective and controlling a lot of aspects in my life, and I didn't have much direction or self autonomy, for argument's sake. My siblings were okay, you know, there was nothing too serious there. It was just, you know, usual sibling infighting here and there, which is, you know, honestly, it's normal, it's typical. But, I developed an inferiority complex, which was a serious problem, and I believe it was definitely one of the contributing factors towards my SSA. But you know, when I look back into that, I've realized that my parents did try their best. Initially I was quite resentful and I felt the need to blame my father, which I don't believe is healthy. You know, we can't do that, unless, you know, other people have experienced otherwise. But, personally speaking, I know for a fact that every person is different. You know, you can't control how people are like. My dad might have had his own traumas that he had in his life that he doesn't talk about, which led to his inability to communicate with other people as much. And you know, because he's a man of very, you know, a small amount of words and he is very reserved. Mind you, he's a very confident person. But you know, I realized that every person has their own journey. You can't blame someone for the way that you turned out, but you do have control over healing yourself. 

So, alhamdulillah, it took me some time, but I'm at a good place now where I've realized that there's no point; it's not going to benefit you in any way to be resentful, because what's happened has happened. It's more about living in the moment now. It's living in the moment and doing the best that you can today, and to be the best version of yourself every day, as much as you can, you know. So I've broken that cycle of resentment, alhamdulillah, because really there's no reason to point the finger and there's also no point holding on to these things anymore.

Which leads me to the point that, you know, a big, big factor is our spirituality and connection to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, because the power of dua and having true conviction of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is super important for a person to heal. I've come to the realization that, alhamdulillah, Allah knows what we're capable of. He has tested us, knowing that we are uniquely able to handle it, even if you're going through rock bottom right now. We need to understand that Allah knows you are uniquely able to handle it, and we really need to believe that, because He wouldn't test us with that otherwise. And if we are successful and we choose, and if we choose, the key point is that we choose to stick to His path, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala will reward us immensely, due to the nature of our ongoing test, because it's not an easy one. It's an ongoing test in our life. Many others are tested temporarily, but ours is ongoing. But if we do have that in the back of our minds, that Allah knows that we are uniquely able to handle it, it gives you this kind of drive to think, “Wow, I'm really looking forward to what Allah has in store for me.” While also striking the balance of making sure that you keep yourself in check as well. And we do need to keep struggling in every other aspect in our lives, because our life is just not SSA. We are here to serve Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We are His servants. We are worshipping Him alone. The whole point of this life is for us to worship Him, and we need to improve our ibadah (worship). 

Because if we don't do that, then what's the point?There's no reason to keep being pitiful on ourselves, and you know “Why me?” and you know “My struggle's too hard!” You've got to think as well, look in hindsight, look at what's going on in Gaza right now. Look at what's going on in Pakistan and India. Look at what's going on in Sudan and in Congo and with the Uyghur brothers and sisters in China. Their test is immense! Imagine we had to live through that. But Allah knows we can't handle that. He knows that we are uniquely able to handle this test. We can't take away from other people's struggles and think that ours is more than theirs. No, we need to realize that this is something we can handle, and we are able to handle it, inshaAllah. We just need to keep pushing forward.

Waheed:1:02:19

And maybe this is something that is not really obvious to people who are realizing this at the beginning, and maybe they're in a lot of pain, and they realize that this is just way beyond me at this moment. But we can assure you that, inshaAllah, with the right resources, with the right support, you will come to realize that, alhamdulillah, you've always had the capacity from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to handle whatever Allah has given you and has tested you with.

Bilal:1:02:46

That's right, and with the correct intention, inshaAllah, it does get better. It really does, you know. You just need to keep going, even if it takes you, you know, many months, many years, however long it takes, maybe even if it's ongoing. “Verily, with hardship, there is ease. With hardship, there is ease” (Quran 94:5). We need to realize that it's not after, it is with. So, with our struggle, there is also ease, but we need to seek that ease as well.

Waheed:1:03:19

Absolutely, kind of internalizing the idea that Allah loves me. How has this been a game changer for you?

Bilal:1:03:25

Yes. Accepting the fact that this is from Allah was a huge shift in mindset. It did take me some time to accept this, but it's a gradual level of acceptance, if that makes sense. InshaAllah, I hope it gets better for me as well. Accepting that this is a test from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and accepting that, if I do this properly, it's going to help me in all other aspects of life. So acceptance was a key part for me. And once I truly accepted it, I realised that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala opened up other avenues of faith and ibadah (worship) as well. So I realized that I was connecting to the masjid more. I was going to the masjid more frequently.I was giving to charity more regularly, which I never used to do before. I'm better with my family. My relationship with my wife is so much better. My kids, I'm always trying to be there for them, I go out of my way to give them hugs and kisses all the time. You just end up being a better person by accepting this test and not being resentful for it. And by acceptance, wallahi (by God), you just slowly but surely and automatically, the test quite often, not always, quite often becomes a lot less significant in your life. So that's yeah, so that's where I am right now.

Waheed:1:05:09

When it comes to self-awareness and dealing with triggers. What have you discovered, and how has this kind of helped you in your personal life?

Bilal:1:05:31

Being self-aware has given me a lot of power, because I'm realizing the steps that I'm taking that lead me towards certain behaviors which are the HALT triggers, for example, the HALT paradigm. So it's stopping the urges or acting upon the urges in the initial stages by realizing and being self-aware. And I realized that I was resorting a lot to sort of dopamine rewards and feeling sorry for myself. So, I would fall into those behaviors, which became the same problem all over again, subhan Allah. Once you fall into that behavior, you know, I would go back to shaming, which leads to me feeling crappy, and then I would resort to the same behavior again, repentance, feeling crap about myself, shaming, then resorting to the same behavior again, and it's just rinse and repeat.

But by being a lot more self-aware, I've realized that I'm actually really exhausted right now. I'm tired. I might resort to this behavior later on, but I'm gonna stop it right now. And I need to figure out what's going on. Why am I tired? Is it, I've worked too much? Okay, take a break. You know, take some time off and go out and take your family. Um, yeah, am I feeling lonely? You know, go ahead, connect with one of the brothers from your support group. Am I feeling uh tired? Uh, sorry, let me backtrack. Am I feeling hungry? I haven't eaten properly, so I'll go have my meal. Am I feeling angry? If I'm feeling very frustrated about something, I'll go talk to someone about that. So, that helped to break all of the same cycle that was happening in the past where I wasn't really aware of it before.

Now it's not foolproof, you know, like there's still challenges, and they don't go away completely. But the difference now is that I'm aware of what leads me towards these behaviors, and learning a lot of these self-shame thoughts and behaviors and things like that was really helpful too.

Waheed:1:07:55

I think it was a couple of years ago when you and I kind of were texting at some point and you were like, “Dude! Something major has happened!” and I'm like, “What is it?” And you're like, “SubhanAllah, I got diagnosed with ADHD, and, subhanAllah, it has changed my life!” and all of that. And, you know, back then I was still kind of working on the podcast and I was doing all of the research. And now, after speaking to you and speaking to others, and having access to the research, all sorts of resources, I'm realizing that the topic of neurodivergence is quite common within the community of men and women who experience same-sex attractions, gender dysphoria, and the like. When we talk about neurodivergence, we're talking about things like ADHD, OCD, Tourette's syndrome, autism spectrum, for example, and others. So, can you tell us about your own personal experience when it comes to ADHD and how far you've come so far?

Bilal:1:09:03

Absolutely. So a few.. Maybe, how long ago now, I can't remember, I got diagnosed with ADHD, because, you know, there were certain behaviors that got picked up by, you know, work colleagues and what have you, and because they are also neurodivergent, and they said, “Look, you should really check yourself out, because you know, we're seeing these patterns in you, and we're realizing that this is something that we identify with, and, um, you know, we can see a lot of these behaviors in you, because it's, um, behaviors that you're exhibiting daily, such as forgetfulness, you're disorganized, you're very impulsive, you can’t sit down, for example, you're always, you know, moving from one team leader to another. You know you constantly take breaks and you go outside, and you know you take extended breaks, you know, because you decided to impulsively go to the gym, for example.”

Waheed:1:09:59

So you basically leave work and go to the gym impulsively?

Bilal:1:10:07

Yeah, like during my lunch break, you know, I think to myself, “Man, I'm feeling really frustrated right now. I'll go to the gym for a quick workout.” Yeah and then I would think that I'll just be 15, 20 minutes, but I'll lose track of time and come back and realize “Oh my God! I'm late for work again!” So, they helped me to realize these behaviors, and I thought to myself “I don't really identify with this stuff. What is this? It's just, it's over-diagnosed.It's very cliche. Everyone's got ADHD now.” So I didn't think much of it. But then eventually, after seeing a lot of people on the server say that they've got neurodivergent diagnoses such as ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, for example, OCD, and the like, then I thought to myself “Look, I might give this a go. Maybe this is something that can possibly improve my life in certain aspects.” So, I went to my doctor and I really delved into the topic, by the way, before I went to the doctor, I'm like, “Oh my God,” I kept thinking to myself, “This is me, this is me, this is me.” And I thought “Look, I've got to get this done.”

Waheed:1:11:19

And also kind of seeking the dopamine fix, right? 

Bilal:1:11:28

Yeah, that's right. With ADHD, it's a very dopamine-seeking behavior, because, with ADHD, you don't get as much dopamine as other neurotypical people do. So you're always seeking these dopamine rewarding behaviors, such as, you know, thrill-seeking behaviors and something that pleases you, intense gratification, which applied a lot in my life. Because I love going jet skiing, I love going, for example, on motorbikes and things like that, and parachuting, and I love it. I actually love that. Unfortunately, I'm not happy to admit this, but I speed a lot, and I just can't help myself.

Waheed:1:12:19

You swear a lot?

Bilal:1:12:21

I speeda lot.

Waheed:1:12:22

Oh, you speeda lot.. Okay, well, that's typical Arab, I mean..

Bilal:1:12:29

HAHA! That’s right! So, eventually I went to my GP and he said “Oh, you know, this is really being overdiagnosed right now, are you sure you want to do this?” And I insisted, I said “Look, no, I really want to get assessed.” A lot of GPs out there think… They're not very equipped, especially if they're old school type of GPs as well, with picking up on neurodivergence, because it was only typically just the loudmouth boy who you can't sit down in class, and what have you. But people realize now that ADHD is a lot more than that. So, long story short, I got my diagnosis from a psychiatrist. I was really against taking medication initially, because I didn't want to resort to taking medication to “fix me”, you know, like it's not something I felt like I wanted, I didn't want to feel like I'm deficient in any way.

But after quite some time and speaking to a lot of people, I decided to give the medicine a go. And from the very first day, my mind just slowed down. There weren't a million thoughts in my head, there wasn't jumping - it still happens to a certain extent, I have to admit, but my brain just got so much quieter. I could think clearly. I didn't struggle to get the words out, because there's so much going on in my life when someone's having a conversation with me. I was a lot less impulsive in certain behaviors. And truly, I felt like it was “Wow, I can't believe this” - I thought this was normal my whole life, but, um, not to say that I'm not normal, but it's just neurodivergent. My brain's just wired in a different way. And, subhanAllah, taking the medication was a big game changer for me, because it quietened my mind down a lot, and it helped me to focus more, and it helped me to clear my thoughts and think clearly, and in a weird way, made me patient in certain ways as well. 

So, I really looked into this a lot, and I believe that a lot of people who experience SSA or gender dysphoria, for example, there's quite a decent percentage that are neurodivergent, and there's quite a few studies. Maybe, I think you might have… Have you done some studies? I think you were saying, Waheed, right? I mean, not done them, I should say, but you've looked into it.

Waheed:1:14:59

Yeah, yeah, I mean for sure there are… There is quite a high percentage of neurodivergence among people who identify as LGBT. Well, obviously, these studies involve that cohort of people who identify as LGBT. But this is something that, for example, if I were to tell you about the people that I've spoken with over the years, like a large percentage of them, you know, they have OCD, ADHD, ADD, they fall on the spectrum of autism. But also we need to understand . so this is kind of a caveat - that not everyone who experiences same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria has neurodivergence.So this needs to be said. That not everyone has that. And also the opposite is true, in terms of not everyone who has neurodivergence necessarily ends up experiencing, or does not necessarily simultaneously have same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria. So we need to kind of differentiate between them. And what also needs to be mentioned is: Correlation is not causation. That's just because there is a high percentage of neurodivergence among people who experience same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria doesn't mean that thatis the cause of that. That also needs to be said. And another thing… I'm sorry I'm mentioning a lot of caveats, because a lot of people may be exposed to this for the first time, especially parents, you know, they give me a big headache, and they're like “Oh, you know, listening to this, is our child… Oh, does our child have ADHD? Do we need to put them on medications?” No, it's different. It's different between people. You know with Bilal, he got the diagnosis, he started the treatment and it has been a game changer.I know, for example, people who have ADHD, they started the medication, it took a while for it to take effect. There were a lot of side effects that they had to switch to other medications. Sometimes they didn't get the benefit that they were looking for, because there were other kind of variables at play. So I think what needs to be mentioned here is that it's different from one person to another. What we encourage people to do is just to keep an open mind, that if they find some signs and symptoms that may direct them towards a particular diagnosis, to get themselves checked. And if that is the case, and if a medication would be available, then maybe after consulting with the right professionals, and obviously praying istikhara and asking Allah for support, then if that is what may be helpful at the time, that could be an option available. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all of their issues will just disappear. Do you agree with that?

Bilal:1:17:32

Oh, absolutely. Yes, you're absolutely right there. It does not solve everything. No, so I didn’t mean to come across that way if I did.

Waheed:1:17:40

Oh Gosh, not at all. Not at all.I'm just aware of the diversity of the audience, and I just wanted to make sure that everything is clarified.

Bilal:1:17:48

Absolutely. You’re right, because it’s definitely not a fix for everything. Absolutely not. People go through life experiences, but having a diagnosis for a certain condition doesn't mean it's going to solve everything for you, because you still have things in your life, along your journey, that affect you in many different ways.

Waheed:1:18:23

So, now that you've been through all of these realizations, and in the past couple of years, mashaAllah, you have grown a lot personally, like spiritually, emotionally, physically, as you've mentioned, mentally. You have a support system, mashaAllah. You have a loving wife and wonderful kids, may Allah preserve them and all of you. You mentioned that you feel, alhamdulillah, much different, you've come a long way. So how do you describe yourself, and what have you realized so far along this journey?

Bilal:1:18:58

Okay. So, alhamdulillah, I think I've come to the point where I've realized that this whole life is, this whole purpose of life is being consciously aware of Rabb Al-Alameen and what the true purpose of this life really is. You know, in the past, I found myself just obsessing over SSA and trying to find ways to “fix it”, and knowing that SSA now is just simply a part of my life, and it's not necessarily a big focus of my life like it used to be. So I don't let it control my life anymore, which means I don't obsess anywhere near as much as I used to. I definitely don't look at it in the same way anymore. I don't feel like I need to fix it. It's not something that I need to fix, it's just simply there. So, in the past, for example, I used to be a really meek, really quiet, really passive kind of guy. You know the self-shame, alhamdulillah, is almost non-existent. I'm much calmer about my trial in this life. SSA will always be a trial in my life. There will be ups and downs, but the difference now is, I'm definitely calmer about this test and more accepting of it. I know what I need to do if I am facing a test, and I'm a lot more likely to avoid doing anything that I shouldn't be doing. And, alhamdulillah, just being very Allah-centric and Akhirah-centric (Hereafter-centric).

We need to keep working on developing our Iman (faith) and our Ihsan (righteousness, excellence). We need to focus on being a better Muslim in our communities. We need to continue to advocate for the injustices in the world, such as Palestine, Sudan, Syria… We really can't let this go. We need to give back to the community. We need to do what we need to do to improve the Ummah (community), because our Ummah is struggling right now. Our brothers and sisters in Gaza and the West Bank, they're really struggling right now. They're in the middle of a famine. And wallahi it breaks my heart to see our Ummah in that way, but it's also a litmus test that you know, our Ummah, alhamdulillah, is waking up, you know. So, we need to realize that there's a greater purpose in life. We need to focus back to Allah in all aspects. You know, whether it's self-development, your character building, your being part of a Muslim community, your advocacy. We need to work on all of these things. 

And alhamdulillah, now I'm a lot more present in all of these aspects. I always try my best to focus on my family, you know, being there for them, being there for my wife and my kids and giving them as much quality attention as I can. Being directly involved in their lives, and talking to them, and speaking with them. The same goes for my wife, naturally. And, just overall, keep progressing. You just got to keep going.You need to realize that this Akhirah is coming for you, you know. And what are you going to show for it? You need to show that you have been true to Allah's test, and you're worshipping Him, and you're doing everything you can in your surroundings to be the best version of yourself in all aspects of your life. And we also need to realise the importance of repentance, we need to look at this as a test, as a connection to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. It's hard sometimes to manage, but it is manageable, you know. 

So, my advice to everyone out there is to keep at it, just keep at it. Take one day at a time, aim to be a better vision of yourself today compared to yesterday. So, I just want to give hope to other people that it does get better, and you just gotta keep at it, inshaAllah.

Waheed:1:23:54

InshaAllah, barakallahu feek. That's amazing. So one aspect that is important to address is the topic of marriage. MashaAllah, you are a husband, a father, and you have been active in also supporting other brothers on the support group who are considering marriage, who want to get into marriage, who are already married and they're going through whatever struggles they may be going through. This doesn't mean, again, that your life is perfect. Of course you do have your own struggles, just like anyone else. We all have our ups and downs, single or married, SSA or otherwise. But can you tell us a little bit about your own personal journey with marriage, and what lessons you can share with anyone listening to you right now who is considering that kind of choice for their own life?

Bilal:1:24:42

Yeah. Alhamdulillah, I'm really blessed that I can be an example to others that marriage definitely is possible. I feel like many in the SSA community box themselves into categories, into quite rigid categories, and I think it's important to relieve yourself from that. You know, a lot of people tend to think that they just need to worry about being able to perform, you know, on the first night in the bedroom, you know. But marriage is so much more than that. Before you even get to that, the correct question you should be asking yourself is, “Do I want marriage? Do I want to be married?” Because you don't want to burden another person with your test if you're not ready. And the way to know if you're ready is, number one: Are you truly wanting marriage? Is that something you truly desire? If you tick that box, number two I would say is, are you willing to make sure that you're able to open a household and you're able to provide? Are you financially ready?

And more importantly I should probably backtrack: Do you feel that you can connect with women, you know? Do you have a degree of connection with women where you're able to talk with them? Because I understand that some brothers are really finding it difficult to connect with women altogether, you know. So it's important that you know that you can fulfill the rights of your wife as well, because if you're not going to be emotionally available for your wife, which is a very big part of marriage, then you should question if you are actually ready to get married. Because if you are at the point where you're in your journey and you're really struggling with your SSA and you think that you can't provide that support to your wife in every aspect, whether it be emotional, physical, whether it be financial, then no, you shouldn't get married right now.You need to wait and work on those things before you even approach the topic altogether. Have the intention. If you want to get married, that's not a problem. You can have the intention to get ready to work towards it. But you need to work on yourself first, and make sure that you are in the correct headspace. You can't go into a marriage when you're very, you know, struggling emotionally and forcing that baggage on someone else, when you can't even share the struggle. Or if you choose to share that struggle to begin with, but you're not actually ready, you know, in the healing journey, then no, you're actually doing a great injustice to yourself and to your potential wife. So it's super important to be aware of that.

And for myself, like I said previously in the episode, I was really determined. Alhamdulillah, I was ready financially and everything else, and I had a good job and that was all okay. But I was extremely determined that I was going to get married, because I truly wanted a companion in my life, I wanted to have a wife, I wanted to have kids and, to some degree, I did have a low level of OSA (opposite-sex attractions). It was very low, I have to admit, and I was very concerned before I got married whether that aspect was going to be okay or not. But, alhamdulillah, I've realized that you've got to build a connection with your future spouse.When you're getting to know her, you have to make sure that you are compatible in your character. She has to be your confidante. You have to be content with how she treats you, what do you expect from her, what she expects from you, have you talked about that? What do you need from her, what she expects from you, have you talked about that? What do you need from her, what does she need from you, have you talked about that?

And knowing all of these things beforehand will help you to develop things organically, because once you've talked and discussed about these things and your needs and your wants, which, by the way, you need to make a list for yourself. What do I need? What do I expect in a marriage? What do I need from my wife? What can I offer her if she expects something from me? You need to make sure you discuss and talk about these things. Once that's all established, and you've established that you can connect with this woman, things develop organically, subhanAllah. You build up this sense of nurture and connection, and it's a bond that you know is growing between you. You look across to her and you realize that she loves you and you love her.It's not necessarily a sexual thing initially, but eventually, it does lead to a sexual attraction too. You know, and that's what happened for me, which I should also add, by the way, you need to make sure that even if you struggle with physical attraction, you must also choose someone that you find physically pleasing to look at. And from that, you eventually build that bond with your wife, and eventually the love grows, and from that, subhanAllah, the physical intimacy develops from that organically. 

I've realised that sexuality is quite fluid, from my understanding throughout the years. I don't know. I can only say for myself, it's not necessarily about the gender of the person, it's about who they are. And once you build that intense love for them, the physical intimacy just follows. And it happened very organically for me, alhamdulillah, and it hasn't been an issue for me, you know. So, if someone out there is concerned that they can't perform in that way, look, as long as you've ticked off all those boxes we just mentioned, that's something that you're able to handle, and you have… Look, let's just be safe to say you have a low level of OSA, then I believe that marriage is very possible for you.

I do know other brothers on the server, though, who have said that they've had zero opposite sex attractions, and they did, however, tick all the boxes that we just mentioned, every single one of them, and the physical intimacy for them also followed. I personally believe that the fitrah (inherent predisposition) is there. You know, the fitrah that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put for us is inside of us. You just need to tap into it. As long as you do things correctly, with the right intentions, and you've done the work that you need to do to make sure that you're ready, then Allah will bless it for you, inshaAllah.

So, I just wanted to also point out that people like myself and others who didn't have these resources in the past, we did struggle before knowing all this information in our marriages, because we had no one to confide with. But the fact that now that you're listening out there and you've got someone like myself talking to you, you don't have to go through what I did or what others did. So you can equip yourself with the tools that we are discussing, and that would hopefully make your marriage smoother than what we had to go through. So keep that in mind, inshaAllah.

Waheed:1:32:23

When you and I were kind of preparing for this episode, there was kind of um, I think you told me that there was this idea in the back of your mind which was always like “I am afraid of passing SSA on to my kids.” Where do you stand in terms of that right now?

Bilal:1:32:42

SubhanAllah, yes. Yes. So, in the past, before all of these resources, I was terrified of that. I was truly thinking to myself, “My God, is there some sort of a genetic component that I don't know of? Am I going to pass this on to my kids? Are they going to struggle the same way thatI did?”And “What have I done? Why did I have kids and not think about this properly?” But, subhanAllah, I'm very happy to say that I totally do not think that way, at all. Especially since learning about what are also major contributing factors towards SSA, such as childhood traumas and other complex traumas that may lead to that. I'm consciously aware of making sure that my kids are getting what they need from me. So, I'm trying my best, even though my time is limited with work and what have you, but I try my best to make sure that I'm there for my kids. 

So I try to give quality time to my kids rather than just giving time to my kids, because there's a difference between giving time to your kids and scrolling on your phone and just saying “uh-huh, yep, I love you,” whilst physically giving the time towards them without any distraction. This is super important in this day and age, which is very intense in distractions and social media and phones and iPads and tablets and what have you. So, quality time can be five to 10 minutes, half an hour, for example. If you give that time towards your child, and you give them undivided attention and let them talk about their day, and let them discuss with you what happened, and how excited they were about a certain thing, and what it meant for them, and you just engaging in that conversation with them, this makes all the difference in the world for them and gives them what they need.I believe that that is super important to help a child grow to become healthy and devoid of any traumas that you may be passing on to them without you being aware. And it's helped me realize that if I do the best that I can, then no, it's not going to happen for them. And even if it does happen for them, then that's fine. It's unlikely, but Allah may test them in a way that I've been tested too, and they'll be uniquely in a position where they've got someone who's been through it themselves, you know. So I don't wish it upon my kids, I absolutely do not. But if it happens for them, because of whatever reason, then who better than a parent to help them with that? You know?

Waheed:1:35:39

So, if you don't mind me asking, what sort of challenges do you face during marriage and how do you deal with these challenges during marriage? I mean SSA or otherwise. The reason I'm asking is because a lot of people think that, “Oh, you know, he's gotten married and everything is fine and dandy,” when in reality it's not. I mean, life is all about ups and downs, whether you're married or not. But in terms of challenges with your wife, with your kids, as a married man, as a husband, as a father, you know what sorts of challenges can you share with us that you face, and how are you able to deal with them?

Bilal:1:36:14

Look, I think it's super important to realize that you've got to put yourself in a position with a typical guy, you know, who experiences you know opposite-sex attractions exclusively. If I were a person who experiences that exclusively, and I see a woman that I find attractive walking on the street, I would lower my gaze. You just have to realize, it's as simple as that. If you find yourself in that position, you just simply lower your gaze. We need to think of ourselves as a regular human being. You know, like every single person experiences urges in one way or another. So, you need to apply the same for yourself, and realize that the same principle applies to you. Rabb Al-Alameen has given us these rules for a reason. If you happen to look at someone, the first look is for you, but you need to lower your gaze immediately, and then the second look is on you.

Other than SSA, for example, naturally, there's always ups and downs in marriages. It's not just happy times every single day. It's never going to be like that for everyone at all. You know, my wife and I fight from time to time. We get, you know, disappointed from each other, but we come back to each other. You need to keep an open line of communication. If you don't communicate, that is the death of many marriages. You know, the key is communication. If you are feeling a certain way about something and you don't communicate that, you start to play these silly scenarios in your head, and you think that your wife is doing or making decisions on her own, and you just create a scenario in your brain. Whilst if you communicate with your wife and you discuss things in a civil manner, and you need to resolve a certain thing, then it's out in the open. You've discussed it, you've given your thoughts, even though you may not agree on certain things, but you've at least communicated with your wife, and you've actually put yourself out there. And the same with her to you. So, like any other marriage, communication is really important. 

You need to also understand that you need to give time to your wife exclusively, sometimes when you have kids as well, because raising kids can be quite challenging. You know you've got to send them to school, they've got studies, they've got extracurricular activities. So a lot of time is spent towards, you know, giving time for your kids. But along the way, sometimes, you need to rebuild that connection with your wife, because you've invested so much time into your work commitments, your extended family commitments, your Muslim community, other than your kids as well. So, sometimes, that connection needs to be reignited again, you know. So, I highly recommend that couples out there spend time alone, you know.Go on a date night with your wife, take her out, be romantic with her, you know, spend time with her exclusively. Go on a trip, if you can, maybe once a year or so, without the kids, if you can, you know, just to build a connection,, if it's starting to sort of step away from you a little bit. Which is standard stuff that you go through in any other marriage really. However, we also need to take the time with the little things in life, as well, you know, like making sure, for example, you give proper attention to her on a daily basis, such as you give her a good kiss, you make sure you look her in the eyes, just for a second if it takes only a second, you know, before you go to work.

Waheed:1:40:02

Hopefully more than a second, but you know, we catch your drift.

Bilal:1:40:12

HAHA! That's exactly right. You know, and you've got to implement those little things where she knows that you've - she's seen you and you've seen her in all aspects, and if you maintain that, inshaAllah, then you'll be okay.

Waheed:1:40:41

Bilal, this has been amazing. I thank you so much for all of the wonderful lessons and gems you've shared with us so far. So, if I were to ask you right now, what are some take-home messages or pieces of wisdom that you would like to share with the listeners in addition to everything that you've shared. What are some things that you would like for people to take home with them today from this conversation?

Bilal:1:41:08

You are not alone. You've got Rabb Al-Alameen. He's with you right now. We know what you're going through. I know what you're going through. I see you, and I hear you, and I understand exactly what you're going through.

Naturally, every person has a different journey, it's not an easy test. But it can be very manageable if you take the time to heal from previous traumas, if you've had them. And you can choose how much SSA can control your life. You can choose to make it a major focus point, or you can be on the journey towards recovery and eventually make it a simple aspect of your life. It's up to you to choose. And, at the end of the day, yes, SSA is a part of our lives, but what's the true purpose? Our true purpose is to serve Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and to worship Him in this life. Because, wallahi, inshaAllah, ya Rabb, bi’thnillah (God willing), hopefully we'll all get to Jannah without any prior trials or tribulations in the Akhirah.

But once we get there, inshaAllah, and if we get there - which I'm hopeful that we will get there - this life, we'll just joke about it. We'll think, “Man, I was worried for, like you know, all this time, and look where we are now.” You know, forever bliss in the Hereafter, there's something to look forward to, and that's what our drive should be. You know, our job should be to please Rabb Al-Alamen and to realize that He is closer to us than our jugular vein. You know. There is no one closer to us than Him, subhanahu wa ta'ala. And, alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah for everything. We need to remind ourselves that we are thankful to Allah for everything, alhamdulillah for everything, and keep going at it. We've all got this. We can all support each other and, bi’thnillah, we'll have a massive convention in the Hereafter and we'll talk about it and laugh about it and think, “Man, we passed it, alhamdulillah, we got there!”

Waheed:1:43:39

Alhamdulillah, and your bird in the background agrees with us, mashaAllah! Jazak Allah khair. So there is a part in every episode towards the end where I ask my guests a couple of questions about something that they've never told someone else, that if they were given the chance, what would they like to tell that other person? And for you, I would like to ask you, I would like to ask you, if you were to talk to your younger self, let's say Bilal, as a teenager or like a young adult who is at the beginning of his journey and he's going through all sorts of troubles and issues and shame and whatnot, what would you tell him?

Bilal:1:44:34

Oh boy, that's a big question. I would say, it's okay, we got there. We actually did get there. It was seemingly impossible, but alhamdulillah, Allah opened up the door for us to get there. And don't be so hard on yourself. You know, like you've always been so hard on yourself… Oh God. You were so hard on yourself your whole life, and you need to learn to forgive yourself. Life gets better, alhamdulillah, it does get better. And it's important to realize that you are worthy of love. You didn't choose for it, and now I understand that now. You did not choose this, and I know you didn't choose this. But Allah loves you, and He knows who you are. He knows you're a good person. And I pray to Allah that He keeps our intentions pure, and, bi’thnillah, we'll get to Jannah, bi’thnillah. We just need to have more hope in Allah, when in the past, you used to think that it was all about punishment and doom and gloom. But it's actually not. Allah loves us, and He truly wants the best for us. And, alhamdulillah. I've come to realise that now. Alhamdulillah.

Waheed:1:46:25

Alhamdulillah, beautiful, beautiful answer, jazak Allah khair. What about your wife? What is something you've never told her that you wish you could tell her if you had the chance to do so?

Bilal:1:46:41

I'm sorry if I wasn't always there in the past before my healing journey. I really tried, and I hope you forgive me - I think you have forgiven me when I haven't been there in certain months throughout our years, I've always retreated to myself. I hope I've given you the rights that you need. I believe I have now. Just know that if I wasn't always there, it's because I was struggling without you knowing, and it wasn't for a silly reason, but it was for an intense struggle that I couldn't share with you, because I didn't want to burden you with a burden that you most likely couldn't handle. So, I thought I would relieve you from that burden, and I tried my best to live my life without it impacting you, and I believe that, for the majority of my life, I don't think it has impacted you. It's something that I chose to keep to myself so that our marriage can stay healthy, inshaAllah.

Waheed:1:48:01

InshaAllah, wonderful answer, barak Allah feek. When you and I were talking and preparing for this episode, you told me a little bit about your father and and you also shared about him in this episode, albeit briefly, that he was there physically but emotionally he was distant, in general, that he was there for you, but now you've discovered that for yourself, and how that kind of was a contributing factor, so to speak, in your life. And, alhamdulillah, you've been able to kind of work through that. But if you were to to tell something to your dad that you weren't able to tell him throughout these years, that you wish you could have told him, what would that be?

Bilal:1:48:46

Um, uh, my dear father, I love you and I know that you love me. I do know that. I know that you love me and I know you have struggled with expressing that towards me. I'm not gonna say I wish you love me more, because this is just qadr (decree) from Rabb Al-Alameen, you know. So I don't, alhamdulillah, I don't have any resentment towards my dad, because I know this is qadaa’ and qadr (divine decree) for it to happen. So I just wanted to say that I love you, and I respect you.

I'd also like to say to our Muslim community that having SSA is a test from Rabb Al-Alameen. It is not something that we have chosen. It is a test from Rabb Al-Alameen, and He has tested us with this. But we'd also like for you to extend some compassion towards us, because it's a struggle that we didn't choose, and it may not be something you understand, but have compassion towards those around you. You know, if you've seen someone who acts in a certain way or has effeminate behaviors, or you know somebody has acted out, for example, have compassion on them. You know, they're struggling in their unique tests just as much as you have. There's many struggles out there in life, such as addictions, gambling, pornography, you know, taking the life of someone, being a person who abuses other people. It would be good to see compassion from our community and more understanding.

I hope we've reached the point in our community where, with time, we are able to openly let people know that we are struggling, and it's not shameful to mention that someone has SSA, and especially for our community leaders to understand it more and to not sweep us under the rug. Iit is a problem in our community, that we are not dealing with it. We are sweeping it under the rug, we are not helping these youth who are coming up and growing up and dealing with SSA in their lives. It is thrown so much more in their face right now, compared to the past. The LGBT agenda, social media, the stimulus for SSA out there and for it to be developed is getting higher and higher. So, we could easily lose these youth to the LGBT community, or we can choose to accept them, even though we may not understand it completely, but we can choose to accept them in our community so that we don't lose them to the other side, because they belong to us, and we need to nurture them, and make sure that they are understood and they are heard, and they need to heal and understand that they have a choice. They don't have to succumb to the LGBT community, but they can choose to be a Muslim who has SSA and still be true to the way of Allah.

Waheed:1:52:22

Amen!! Way to end it on a high note! Jazak Allah khair. Brother Bilal, I have had the absolute honor today of speaking to you and learning so much from you. Jazak Allah khairan for all of these wonderful lessons and gems that you took the time to share with us. I love you very much, bro. You know how much you mean to me.

Bilal:1:52:41

Absolutely. Right back at you!

Waheed:1:52:44

Barak Allah feek, I'm very grateful to call myself your friend and your brother.

Bilal:1:52:50

The honour is mine. Wallahi the honor is mine, alhamdulillah.

Waheed:1:52:53

Jazak Allah khair. I mean, it goes both ways, but, alhamdulillah, I hope that the listeners have benefited, inshaAllah, which I'm sure they have. And yeah, I guess you can catch brother Bilal on the Straight Struggle server. I'm sure you'll be getting lots of messages soon, so brace yourself! Alhamdulillah.

Bilal:1:53:17

One important thing I just wanted to add is may Allah accept from us and keep our intentions pure. And wallahi, I wish nothing more, but I hope that Allah answers our dua, that it reaches every single person that needs this and to hear it, and I wish, ya Rabb, I wish that this reaches Muslim media outlets out there. It's not a taboo thing to talk about, because there's only so much we can talk about on, you know, the Straight Struggle server, and alhamdulillah the podcast is amazing.But I hope the podcast and all the resources go viral, because there are people out there who are still struggling silently, you know, and that really pains me. Wallahi, that's the main reason why I wanted to do this, because people out there need to know that they are not alone, and they can share their struggles, and they can heal. And it needs to reach mainstream media, especially, you know, Islamic mainstream media, that there is support out there, there are people out there and there are people out there who they can relate to, bi’thnillah. So may Allah keep our intentions sincere for His sake, and may Allah bless it, bi’thnillah.

Waheed:1:54:34

Ameen, may Allah bless you, protect you and all of your loved ones, and may Allah grant you and your family Jannah inshaAllah. May Allah reunite us all in Jannah and, as you said, that we would have that large convention, all of us, subhan Allah. We may not meet each other in real life, but maybe in Jannah, inshaAllah, we will. And, inshaAllah, may Allah unite us in His presence, under His shade on the Day where there is no shade but His, inshaAllah.

Bilal:1:55:02

Ameen, ya Rabb, bi’ithnillah.

Waheed:1:55:04

And with that we come to the end of today's episode.I hope you have enjoyed it and found value in the content. I would like to kindly ask you to hit the subscribe button, if you have not done so already, to make sure that you don't miss any episodes. And if you have enjoyed the podcast so far, please make sure to give us a good rating, as that helps make the podcast more visible for people. And if you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, roll over the link in the episode show notes and fill out the form, and if you have any questions or comments or suggestions, feel free to email me anytime on voicesfrombeyondthereinbow@gmail.com. Talk to you in the next episode, inshaAllah. This has been Waheed Jensen in Voices from Beyond the Rainbow. Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.