Voice #3 - Maryam: "From the Rahm to Allah's Rahma: Healing Gender Dysphoria through Hope and Surrender"

Trigger warning: This episode involves a discussion of sensitive subjects like sexual abuse and trauma, in addition to female menstruation and body image wounds.

Growing up as a "tomboyish" girl in Pakistan who never quite fit traditional feminine expectations, Maryam eventually developed gender dysphoria alongside same-sex attraction—all while trying to remain faithful to her Islamic beliefs.

Maryam takes us through the complex factors that contributed to her gender struggles: early sexualization despite modest dress, cultural pressure to conform to narrow definitions of womanhood, and complicated family dynamics. With remarkable vulnerability, she shares how her relationship with her female body, particularly menstruation, transformed from shame to sacred connection when she discovered the linguistic relationship between "Rahm" (womb) and Allah's attributes of mercy.

What makes Maryam's story so powerful is that her healing didn't come from forcing change or focusing obsessively on eliminating unwanted feelings. Instead, it came through complete surrender to Allah when nothing else was working: "I will get out of my own way," she decided, opening herself to approaches she had previously dismissed. The transformation that followed surprised even her—not just in alleviating gender dysphoria but in helping her genuinely embrace her femininity.

Today, Maryam describes herself as "a very feminine woman" whose SSA and gender dysphoria no longer define her existence. Yet she's quick to emphasize that this shouldn't be everyone's benchmark for healing: "Being better means being actually content and happy, having good mental health," not necessarily eliminating all challenging feelings. Maryam's story illuminates how spiritual growth, psychological healing, and cultural understanding can work together to create authentic paths forward for Muslims experiencing gender and sexuality struggles.

Resources mentioned in the episode:
- A Way Beyond the Rainbow episodes on understanding and healing sexual abuse (part I and part II)
- A Way Beyond the Rainbow episodes on marital intimacy and sex with Dr. Rana Khaled (part I and part II)
- Women of Desire: A Guide to Passionate Love and Sexual Compatibility by Habeeb Akande
- Maryam's contact information: mohsinmaryam1993(AT)gmail.com

Chapters

• 3:08 Opening remarks
• 6:17 Navigating adolescence and sexual identity
• 13:36 Gender dysphoria and social pressure
• 27:04 The sacred connection with womb
• 42:15 Masculine-feminine balance and role models
• 1:11:40 Trauma, abuse and family dynamics
• 1:28:14 The healing journey and surrender
• 1:55:33 Embracing true identity and worth
• 2:09:20 Final reflections and wisdom
• 2:25:45 What would you tell them if you had the chance?
• 2:28:00 Ending remarks

Transcript

Waheed: 3:13

Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, and welcome to a new episode of Voices from Beyond the Rainbow. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining me in today's episode. My guest today is Sister Maryam, who is joining us all the way from Pakistan to share with us her story. In this episode we talk about Maryam's personal experience with same-sex attractions and gender dysphoria. We discuss the “wounded feminine” and the roles of the masculine and feminine energies in our lives. We also talk about cultural and familial issues, particularly when it comes to matters like shame, marital pressure, as well as sexual abuse trauma and disclosure of such trauma. And then we talk about healing and recovery work, the importance of grief and surrender, the ups and downs along the journey, finding one's sense of worthiness and having a relationship with Allah (SWT) and growing through that, and how that is foundational in one's healing journey and life at large. There are so many gems and extraordinary takeaways in this episode, and I pray that you enjoy it and find many lessons that you can incorporate in your own journey, inshaAllah. 

A general trigger warning before we begin: We discuss some sensitive topics like sexual abuse and trauma and past wounds in this episode, and there are references to female menstruation in relation to body image wounds and healing.

Waheed: 4:46

Assalamu alaikom, Maryam, how are you doing today?

Maryam: 4:50

Wa alaikom assalam Waheed, alhamdulillah, doing quite well.

Waheed: 4:55

Alhamdulillah, so I'm very excited about you joining me today. We have a lot of wonderful themes to talk about, but before we dive into these different topics, would you mind introducing yourself briefly to the audience?

Maryam: 5:06

Yes, so I go by Maryam. I'm a multi-talented professional, I'm in my early 30s and I'm from Pakistan, and the reason that I'm on this podcast today is that I'm also someone who has experienced same-sex attraction. At the same time, I've struggled with gender dysphoria for quite a while and I'm also very much on the asexual-aromantic spectrum. So, yes, I was, thankful… You know, I'm grateful to Waheed for inviting me to talk about my experiences, and I'm actually really excited about today.

Waheed: 5:42

I'm very excited as well and thank you for being a guest on this podcast, Jazaki Allah khair. All right, so we have a lot of themes, when you and I were kind of preparing for this episode and you sharing the different topics that you want to talk about. We have a lot of juicy material that I'm excited to share with the audience, inshaAllah. So you wanted to talk about your experience with the gender dysphoria and the “wounded feminine”, and you want to also delve deep into societal pressures: including history of sexual abuse and marriage pressure from your society, from your family, as well as what you term as spiritual trauma. And then how you have been going about this journey of healing through finding Allah SWT, as you basically defined it or you called it. So I am absolutely grateful for you to be here and, yeah, let's dive deep into this. The floor is yours, bismillah.

Maryam: 6:40

Yeah, all right, bismillah. So I think, like one of the main reasons I decided to, you know, share such a private part of my life is because I'm very, very grateful to Allah that I'm in this place right now, where, alhamdulillah, I've been able to significantly heal from a lot of the challenges that I was experiencing. And you know, you and I met on the straight struggle support server that you shared before, and, I think meeting a lot of brothers and sisters over there; there's, especially when you start talking about this, there's this idea that we feel isolated and we feel that there's no hope, but, alhamdulillah, I wanted to come here and share my story because I'm doing a lot better and I want to share that there is hope, alhamdulillah. And I know I sound really excited and chirpy right now, but that's not how my life has been.

Maryam: 7:36

I think growing up I did feel, you know, quite isolated because I was very different from a lot of the other girls my age. I think you could call me somewhat tomboyish and I didn't have a lot of interests that a lot of other young women or girls had. Especially, teenage years were really challenging because I mentioned earlier that I'm on the asexual and aromantic spectrum and you know, teenage years were such a weird time where you know all the boys are like struggling with their feelings for women, for girls, and then you know, on the other side you have the girls who are talking about boys all the time and I'm just like, what is this? What happened to these people that I grew up with and who do I talk to and what's going on, and people are like what? You don't feel this way? and I never felt at that time which I know has been experienced for a lot of other women who have experienced same-sex attraction that you know you kind of pretend to like someone so you fit in, because I was very clear that I am different, I have different interests, I'm quirky, yes. I'm not going to do something that's not authentic for me, right?

Maryam: 8:46

So at the same time, it was really difficult for me because I could tell that I was very different. I thought very differently and people were not sure, okay, what's up with this girl? What's happening here? She's always like doing something different or reading in a corner or something while we're checking out magazines, or the opposite gender in magazines and everything.

Maryam: 9:11

And you know, so that kind of added to like my isolation, because even though I was really friendly, I felt like nobody really understood me. I felt like I didn't understand myself and at the same time, as I grew older, I think what was happening was that I started to feel intense emotional connection with people who I could relate to at some level, and it took me a very long time to understand what romantic attraction actually was, and I thought that it kind of was, and at the same time, there was a little bit of SSA or a fear that you know that could happen, because I've never really developed feelings for anyone unless I've sensed them coming from the other side. For me, it was always about really becoming good friends with someone, because I didn't experience physical attraction and these things are really weird, like even though growing up in a Muslim country, you know it's - these experiences are very universal.

Waheed: 10:05

Correct. So for those, if you don't mind me asking for those who are not familiar with the terms ‘asexual’ and ‘aromantic’, can you just give us a brief overview of what that means?

Maryam: 10:16

Yes, thank you so much for asking that.

So asexual, or someone on the asexual spectrum, is someone who either does not experience sexual attraction or experiences very limited sexual attraction. So it could be that either they developed it after having intimacy or they developed it after getting to know a person really well, or they might just develop it for very, very few people.

Maryam: 10:47

And then aromantic is, and usually, you know, sexual attraction and romantic attraction come together, but sometimes for certain people that can be different, especially for people who possibly may be on the neuro, maybe neurodivergent, and aromantics is something that, people who do not experience - either do not experience romantic attraction or they experience very limited romantic attraction, or it might come in certain forms, like you first have to get to know the person. Or like in my case, I needed to have something from the other person showing interest and only then you know it could happen. So it's called a spectrum because everybody's experiences are very different, but oftentimes the collective experience is still different from the default or the status quo experiences - where when you like someone, romantic and sexual attraction kind of comes together, so yeah.. 

Waheed: 11:38

We'll dive into that insh’Allah during the episode, but yeah please continue..

Maryam: 11:42

I wanted to share a little bit more because, at the same time, even though this was such a fundamental experience for most teenagers that I wasn't experiencing that was completely unknown to me, at the same time I was very sensitive. So I'm sensitive to energies, or what people think of me. I'm told I'm a very intuitive person. So when I started becoming sexualized, at a very young age, and from both men and women. So I don't think a lot of other people my age could have, or would sense it, but for me, I can sense it very intensely and it affects me really badly when I sense that someone is lusting towards me.

Maryam: 12:22

And because of that, I started developing body image issues and I really really began to dislike my body. And I think especially, I had these experiences where I hated being pretty because I thought that would mean that people would sexualize me. And I started wearing ‘hijab’ at a very young age as well. And for me I thought, okay, this is something I'm doing for Allah, but at the same time because I was being sexualized so much I was really obsessed with wearing looser clothes. And I had a phase in my teenage years where I wanted to wear unisex clothes with my hijab, but because they were just men's clothes, things are just much looser and more modest than women's clothing.

Waheed: 13:05

Right, yeah unfortunately.

Maryam: 13:07

And so later on I realized that a lot of my obsession with not wanting to look pretty, not wanting to look feminine or something, was that I thought it would stop people from sexualizing me. And once again they wouldn't do it to my face, but I could sense it really intensely.

Waheed: 13:25

So can you elaborate on what you mean by “people sexualizing you”? So what would that entail from women or men in your life? How did that look like for you?

Maryam: 13:35

Yeah, thank you for asking that actually. So the thing is that— I think this is a very common experience for women unfortunately in Pakistan. Something that I share a lot is that, when we go out in public spaces there are not that many women unfortunately. And for some reason there is this mentality that, ‘oh yeah, anyone on the street, you can just ogle at them’. So I had that when I went out publicly that even though I was dressed so modestly; I was wearing hijab and everything but there would be some pervert across the street who would just keep staring at me. And making it known to me that he was staring at me.

Waheed: 14:12

You were underage, correct?

Maryam: 14:15

I was.. this was 13, and I was already wearing hijab, loose clothing and everything.

Maryam: 14:21

So when my mom and I would sometimes talk about me wearing more trendy clothes and everything, I just would not want to do that. And at the same time — I think we can talk about this later — I also have a history of being sexually molested by another girl a little older than me. So this is something I want to share later. But, I became especially aware of being.. I knew that I was being sexualized. But I became more hyper-aware as I grew up and had more traumatic experiences in my 20s I would say. Because that's when, I still had a very protected life before entering adulthood, and for a few years in my early adulthood I also lived abroad. I studied abroad in the West, so I also got to experience what life is like in the West. And when I moved back I was still being sexualized. And not to say that I wasn't sexualized abroad, but when I moved back in my adult years, I became more aware of what was happening. So when women tend to find you attractive it's more subtle, and I often did not register it that way. That, “oh, this was..” I could tell that something off was happening, but my mind was still protecting me from it. Because, you know, I still had that fear because in my head I was scared that, oh, I have SSA and what if I start to develop a connection with this woman? And what if it goes somewhere, or what if she does something to me? You know, because of the islamic framework— because of the Sharia practices that we have — we have a lot of physical distance and boundaries with the opposite gender. So there is less fear of you violating certain boundaries with the opposite gender than with the same gender if you have same-sex attraction. Yeah, so you know, I had that fear because I knew in the back of my head that, “oh yeah I do have SSA, that can happen.” And then, you know when I would see.. because I have had this experience where, you know, especially women when they see me for the first time without hijab I can see their face change.

Maryam: 16:36

And that's the way the face has changed, you know, for a lot of men that I have known, not that they saw me without hijab. And obviously those women didn't do anything, but they were like certain other things in our interaction which made me realize that, oh, this is happening and stuff. And I still kind of put it away because I was.. I don't want to impose this on anyone else. But you know, sometimes it got a lot more intense and I and I just knew that I needed to have more boundaries over here. So these are just very subtle experiences that I think most other people would not feel that way. I have had blatant things happen to me as well, but because of them, the subtle experiences later on began affecting me really badly. So I had a really bad experience once in a hospital in Pakistan where I was sitting in literally the OPD and I was just smiling to myself because I was like “okay, life is great.” I was actually there for a training, I wasn't a patient there, and I remember that I just looked across the room and then I saw that there was a man sitting 10 feet away from me. His legs were parted and his hand was in his pants while he was staring at me.

Waheed: 17:45

Oh my God!

Maryam: 17:47

And I was just like, I was having such a great moment at that time because I went and I gave this training, and then I came back and I'm just, I couldn’t just sit here and smile to myself while I'm dressed modestly!?” So, these kind of experiences.. so this was a very blatant thing that happened.

Waheed: 18:07

Yeah, yeah.. and obviously we need to caveat this. This is not kind of pinpointing this at the Pakistani culture or any other culture. It's just the way that a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of cultures operate, and it doesn't have to do with religion or with the person's values or anything. It has to do with, unfortunately, a lot of.. apologies..

Maryam: 18:27

because I had bad experiences in the west as well.. They just were a slightly different flavor, but it was still bad. I think in the West I had a few experiences where people were showing more that they were interested, just because I think there's this thing that maybe ‘hijabi’ girls don't get attention or whatever. Whatever it was, I didn't appreciate it.

Waheed: 18:50

Oh my God! Sorry you had to go through that. Subhan Allah.

Maryam: 18:54

So it's just that, you know, it took me a very long time to realize that even though I wore the ‘hijab’, because this was me being like, oh, I'm doing this for Allah and I want to be recognized as a muslim woman. There's this cultural, kind of discussion sometimes in Islamic culture — not discussion but this idea that somehow we do the ‘hijab’ to protect ourselves from these experiences. And there's no doubt that, subhan Allah, the ‘hijab’ does protect us and it has protected me and it has given me so much respect, both from Muslim men and non-Muslim men as well. But this is not the reason that we cover. And in my mind, somehow I internalized the shame— which was not mine to carry— that, oh, because I've been abused or because, I've been ogled at or something I was just not dressed, because, you know, I've been ogled at or something I was just not dressed appropriately and I should have been more modest. And I look at myself and I’m like, “how further could I have gone?” You know, my school uniform used to look like a potato sack because of how loose I insisted on it being. And then, because of that, like that was a big thing I also had that, okay, like am I.. you know, me not wanting to look pretty, me wanting to gain more weight, so I wouldn't be..

There were certain other factors that also came into play with regards to the marriage pressure, which also led to these things but, in my healing journey, this was a time where I had to spend time on, you know what, this is what Allah has asked me to do— to dress this way —and within these parameters, I can still do these other things to make me pretty and because I don't even wear makeup. So, you know, I was just really boggled as to, like, why? And instead of being thankful to Allah for giving me these traits and for making me beautiful, I began to hate my body. You know, for those things, and that also— we can talk about that later on in [that part on] my sexual trauma that you know, it stopped me because I didn't experience sexual attraction towards anyone, let alone, you know, a man, it wasn't even towards a woman. But because of the sexual trauma, like, I began to fear this. I was like, oh my God, are all men like this, because I've seen Muslim men like this, I've seen non-Muslim men be like this, and it made the decent Muslim men in front of me invisible, even though there were so many of them, alhamdulillah.. It took me.. this really added to my sexual trauma, which inhibited me from feeling safe at the idea of being with someone, particularly a man.

Waheed: 21:37

Of course, that must have been tough, subhan Allah. I can only imagine how that must have been difficult going through that and kind of internalizing that at a very young age, and how traumatizing that must have been. But Alhamdulillah, I'm glad to know that you have come a long way in terms of your healing journey and I look forward to hearing more about this, inshaAllah, during this episode.

Maryam: 21:54

Yeah, Alhamdulillah.

Maryam: 22:07

Yeah..so I think I shared before that, aside from the sexual trauma, obviously, you know I was very quirky. I didn't feel like there was any room for women like me. You know who also was not so, aside from the trauma, was not particularly interested in, you know, like beautifying myself that much or, you know, being very girly. And it was just, you know, as I grew older and the gender roles kind of came in, the marriage pressure came in, I felt really suffocated by the gender roles, that there was this thing that, okay, if you're a woman, you can only look like this, like you have to wear makeup, you have to like dress a certain way, and you know there are many ways to look pretty within the islamic foundation as well, there's like in fashion, you can choose your own way of you know, doing so, while still looking feminine. But feminine doesn't have to look one way which is oftentimes, you know, pushed on women that you have to look like this, and I was really resisting that because I didn't fit in that way you know, I don't care what's in fashion, I'm not gonna wear that just because it’s in fashion. It's uncomfortable or, in my case, sometimes not modest enough. And so because of that, because I didn't understand that, I could relate a lot with men. I was a bit ‘tomboyish', so I had a lot of interests that are typically, you know, associated with men and I often found myself as being like the only girl in, like you know, a group of guys in school and university. So you know, when these kinds of things happen and the more that your society pushes you that “no, if you're a girl, you have to be like this, you have to have interest in these things, you have to go do these things.” It was just I, you know, I never really fit in, so it was something I on and off, gender dysphoria, something I experienced while growing up, but it never got that bad until, like in my 20s, where I had certain traumatic experiences happen and then at one point, I was just like you know what I'm, just I just cannot do this. I’m not a woman. I don't feel connected to a woman and I think if I didn't, if it wasn't for Islam, like I had a really tough time a few years ago where I was like, you know, I really wish like I could be something in between. So you have now terms like non-binary and there were a lot of people who I knew at university who have now actually made their gender transition. So and then you know you're growing up with this discourse and you know people are like oh, I don't have to be in this box. And when society tells you you can just be in this box and there's no room for you kind of having fluid interests but still being, you know, man or woman, it just puts you in a very weird place where you're like “oh you know, I cannot be a woman therefore because of this” and so, yeah, this was something that really took heed at that age. It didn't, it wasn't something that got to that level when I was growing up. It really got worse, like when other things in my life, my mental health started collapsing, and I think that's something that people should know about and really look at a person's life holistically rather than just pinpoint that, “Oh why are they identifying as trans or non-binary?”

Waheed: 25:16

Absolutely.

Maryam: 25:17

And recognize that they're not being seen in some way.

Waheed: 25:20

Right.

Maryam: 25:21

Or they're being pressured into something.

Waheed: 25:23

Yeah, 100%.

Maryam: 25:25

Yes, so I think another thing that I wanted to address, which I know that a lot of you know people who are identified as, like, trans men or a lot of women you know, experiencing gender dysphoria in some way, is that like seeing your monthly bleed, having the menstrual cycle, is something really traumatizing for us oftentimes. And there can be different reasons for it. One thing could be that you know when you're like “okay, I'm not a woman.” It's a reminder of your womanhood every single month right..

Waheed: 25:58

Right, right.

Maryam: 26:00

Alright.. and it's also something and we have so many issues related to the womb that even cis women face, like even women who don't have issues with their gender identity that I think it's really important to address. And I, for me, like finding out because I didn't have my.. I had my period, not late, but these days girls are having their period very early because of, you know, endocrine disruptors. So you have girls having a period at like nine or ten. Whereas for me, I had it a bit later, which is a normal age. But there was a hysteria that, oh my gosh, she hasn't had her period yet. What's wrong with her? Should she lose weight? Should this happen? Should that happen? I was taken to a gynecologist. Oh God, there was this mass hysteria amongst my mom's friends, and one of my mom's friends' daughters was like “you know, the people who don't have their period, they're not women then.” And because I already had these thoughts of, okay, maybe, like I'm not there, I thought I was intersex and I was never gonna have my period.

Waheed: 26:53

Woah!

Maryam: 26:54

So when my period actually happened, because I was very well read, so I knew about, you know, all of these things way before I had my period, even though I was, I had my period at a very normal age. And when it happened it was really traumatizing, because I remember there was a time in my life where I literally had a dream where I was like one day I'm going to find out, I'm intersex and I'm actually XY, and then, you know, I would like, can be with the boys.

Maryam: 27:15

And then, like that went away, yeah, but then 10 years later, in my 20s, oh my God. But you know this. I want to talk about the womb because it's been such a big piece of the puzzle and it is such a big piece of womanhood. It IS womanhood in so many ways and we are not taught to appreciate it and love it the way it is. You know our womb, our cycle. It is very precious.

Maryam: 27:42

First of all, your period is a sign of you know how.. It's literally like a health report, a report card that you get at the end of every month. So you know, depending on whether it's painful, how your bleed is, it tells you what your health markers are. And one of the reasons why it's such a difficult experience for women these days is because you know, our lifestyle. I'm not going to go too much into it because the whole podcast could be on that, but I highly recommend , you know women to like read more about it if they are having issues with it. But for me, what happened is that I ended up taking an islamic course, you know, on the seasons of the cycle that that a woman goes through. And it started off with a hadith on the womb and I had no idea, because for me, like I thought that, oh my God, this is this terrible thing that I have, that oh my God, Allah is like angry with me because I can't pray right now. And every time I used to be on my period I'd feel miserable because I was like I cannot pray. So how can I connect with Allah? And I remember, like when I got my period as well, like the older women in my family, you know, just girls a little bit older than me, they're like, “oh, congratulations, like you know, welcome to this misery now you'll relate to this.” And it just boggles me because it didn't have to be like that. You know, when I read the Ahadith, I was taught that, okay when.. and actually you know what, I think I want to share a story of this girl named Umaymah bint Qays from the time of the Prophet, because it's a beautiful story on the prophetic model of you know how to handle it when a girl has her periods. So the story goes that there was this tribe of.. I can't really remember the name, I can't remember the name of the tribe, but I think they were an Ansari tribe that wanted to accompany on Khyber, on the expedition to Khyber and one of the girls from it, she was like 12 years old, so she hadn't matured yet, and the Prophet -sallallahu alayhi wa sallam-, you know he told her that you can sit on his saddle, you know, with him. So obviously the child is a Muslim child, so excited that “Rasulullah -sallallahu alayhi wa sallam-, wants me to sit with him you know, while we're going to Khybar.”

Maryam: 29:59

And so she sat on his luggage actually on his camel and she bled for the first time. She had her period for the first time and she was really embarrassed because, you know, there was blood everywhere. And Rasulullah -sallallahu alayhi wa sallam- instead of shaming her, he saw, you know what happened and he was like okay, I assume that you've had your menstrual bleeding. And she said yes, so he told her to attend to herself. Okay, which means that he didn't tell her that ‘oh go to the other women, they'll take care of you’. He was like, you know, like change your clothes and whatever. And then he took a container of water and he showed her how to wash the stains on the bag, instead of asking one of the women to do it.

Waheed: 30:40

Aw.. beautiful!

Maryam: 30:41

So he literally showed us. You know what to do when something like that happens.

And then he called her to come back and sit there.

Waheed: 30:44

As a man..

Maryam: 30:47

Yes, as a man, as a Muslim, like, can you imagine this? I don't know if you can imagine this or not, but the women I know, we can't imagine this that you know, one of our like imam is like teaching us or something, and then he called her to come back and sit with him. Because, you know, this experience is a very embarrassing experience for women in general, and let alone something happening for the first time.

Maryam: 31:10

And then, when they conquered Khyber, he took a necklace and then he gave it. He actually put it on her neck, himself. And she loved it so much. She actually pointed, in the hadith, she actually points to it and she's like “this is necklace he gave me and by God I will. It will never be parted from me.” And she literally wore it her whole life and was like “I need to be buried with this.” And the source for this is Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal’s ‘Musnad, the Musnad al-nisa’.

Maryam: 31:37

But I was like subhan Allah.. and I remember when my teacher was sharing this, she actually started crying and was like Subhan Allah, what does this mean for intergender relationships? It's not even like a father or someone who did it, it was like her, you know, muslim teacher. And this shows that you know, our period is not something to be ashamed of.

Maryam: 31:58

When a Muslim girl gets it, it's like, oh, she gets to, like it's now obligatory on her to pray five times a day, which was not before. Now she can.. she's supposed to fast the whole of Ramadan, which was not before, subhan Allah. So we had this whole conversation on you know, how we actually need to, need for this to be like a coming of age, a rite of passage also, you know, for girls and it should be something exciting rather than shameful.

Waheed: 

Correct

Maryam: 32:27

..and even other than that. Like the more I started reading, I was like subhan Allah, like my teacher pointed out that the womb is actually an organ, that is the only organ which is a portal to the world from the world of the souls..

Waheed: 

Okay

Maryam:

.. and Allah has chosen women to carry this.

Waheed: 32:46

So what does that mean for people? Yeah, if you can elaborate on that..

Maryam: 32:49

Yeah, I think we should elaborate on this. So, essentially, you know, the soul enters the.. the fetus, some.. at whatever point, I don't know, scholars would know better but whenever it happens, it happens within the womb, right?

Waheed: 

Correct

Maryam: 33:09

..and so this is like, it's, in a way, it's a portal where the soul comes and it's a sacred organ by that, and Allah has chosen.

Like Allah could have made any kind of way for us to grow, like we could be growing like carrots,.. you know, from roots or something, but Allah designed the human in such a way that, you know, the female actually carries it and placed the womb inside of us.

Waheed: 

Subhan Allah.

Maryam: So it is an honor for women to actually have that, that you know. And then, so it.. It was just really really powerful. That, “okay, subhan Allah, it's actually a really precious thing,” and obviously this doesn't mean that [this is] my only role as a woman, but I have been placed with this.

Allah has chosen me to have this organ that you know is such a driver of creativity and births life.And it made me really rethink the way I had a relationship with my womb and then I learned more about my cycle and then I adjusted my lifestyle according to it. So I don't experience any of the other symptoms that I used to before, which made, you know, my menstrual bleed be very uncomfortable beforehand. But to me, like now, I actually get excited, I'm like, oh, subhan Allah, like I can be more spiritual when, like you know, because I can take time off during this, I can just rest and I don't have to necessarily be in salah then, because I'm still connected with Allah. Yes, I'm not supposed to read the Quran or anything else, but I'm still worthy and I'm connected with Allah, even without having to do those ibadah.

Waheed: 34:46

Beautiful, beautiful.

Maryam: 34:47

It's been a powerful reframe for me, whereas before I used to feel ashamed.

Waheed: 

Yeah, yeah

Maryam: 

And now I feel very connected.

Waheed: 34:56

MashaAllah.

I'm very happy to hear that and subhan Allah, you know, we know this on a theoretical level that obviously the womb is where the fetus grows, but like to kind of also add a spiritual element to that that makes it very, very powerful., so that that's a beautiful, beautiful kind of reflection. But, if you don't mind me asking, so basically the idea of you shifting that, having that paradigm shift from a place of being ashamed of your own body, being ashamed of your, your menstrual cycle and kind of hating your womb, to a place of accepting that and even kind of being proud of it. That has come through kind of knowledge and learning more about that and the value that ..

Maryam: 35:32

Yes that.. and more about what Islam has to say about it, because I have a quote also from this Imam.. Imam Birgawi, who lived around 500 years ago, and he was not only a Muslim scholar, but he was someone who used to study the, because you know that we have a lot of ‘Fiqh’ matters related to the menstrual bleed as well, as you know when we can start praying again and other matters.

Maryam: 35:56

So he actually used to have women who used to bring their strips of cloth, you know, to him, so that he could know more about it.

Maryam: 36:03

Obviously, he didn't experience this himself and this is something that I think we would be really grossed out today that, “oh my god, what like an imam scholar is like collecting all of these, you know, pads or this.” Then he actually shared and said this, I'm quoting from him that the ‘fuqaha’ have, “the ‘fuqaha’ or jurists have agreed upon the obligation of knowledge of one's circumstance upon everyone who believes in Allah and the last day, from women and men, that the knowledge of the blood which specifically come from women is obligatory upon her and her husband and guardians. But this has become, in our time, abandoned more so it has become something that is not even mentioned.” 

So he's basically saying that it is the obligation of any Muslim man, especially those who has women in his life, to know about, to have knowledge of, you know, the menstrual cycle and what Allah has said about it. So, and he was feeling really like upset that 500 years ago that we weren't okay with it. I'm like what would he have to say now?

Waheed: 37:06

Yeah subhan Allah, absolutely.

Maryam: 37:08

I know these are very uncomfortable topics to talk about, but..

Waheed: No please, please don’t..

Maryam: but within the boundaries of “hayaa”, we need to be talking about them,

Waheed: 37:12

Absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for kind of paving the way for this. I mean, this is a very important conversation.

Maryam: 37:19

Another thing about the womb that really blew my mind is what is the womb called in Arabic, Waheed?

Waheed: 37:27

‘Ar-Rahm.’

Maryam: 37:29

‘Ar-Rahm’, and what does ‘Rahm’ mean? Like what are the root words that it comes from? Because there are two names of Allah that are very similar to it.

Waheed: 37:42

‘Ar-Rahman’, ‘Ar-Rahim’, correct?

Maryam: 37:44

Yeah, and what do they mean?

Waheed: 37:47

So the connection with mercy, that Allah is The Most Merciful, The Most Gracious, correct?

Maryam: 37:52

Yes, and these are two names of Allah that we repeat the most out of all of the other 99 names, don't we? “Bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim” these are two attributes of Allah “the most gracious, the most merciful.” 

Waheed: 

Correct.

Maryam: 

And subhan Allah this, the root for that, is also the root for the womb. And these things blew my mind. And every single time then, you know, when I'd be feeling down, because I was feeling uncomfortable because of my period, I was like, oh my God, subhan Allah, Allah chose me to place the ‘rahm’ inside of me. 

Waheed: 

Aww.

Maryam: 

And it reminds me of ‘Ar-Rahman’ and ‘Ar-Rahim’ when I'm just sitting by myself and remembering Allah and I'm like, subhan Allah, alhamdulillah. And then you know, it just made everything else like.. it just made my pain and anything else that I was experiencing irrelevant.

Waheed: 38:40 

Right, right, subhan Allah, that is absolutely beautiful, masha'Allah!

Maryam: 38:44

So, I think I shared with you before that I was going through a really, really difficult time in my life, and my twenties were like an absolutely horrible time for a variety of reasons. My life was not working out in any way.. I should perform, aside from my SSA and GD, like, I think my friends at the time were also like we've never met someone who's as complicated as you are, and they were just, everybody was just making dua, even though they didn't know everything. And that's the time where, you know, my SSA and gender dysphoria also just became really bad. And what was happening then is that I really loathed myself, you know, and I was. I was just, you know, crying my eyes out in ‘salah’ the whole time. I wasn't feeling safe in my body and I knew that I had to, like I couldn't entertain those thoughts a lot of you know, “okay, why was I made a woman? Or you know, why do I have these things?” And I had to, like, hold on to the rope of Allah. It felt really, really hard then and I started learning more about Maryam -Alayha Salaam-. It was not something intentional at the time, like coincidentally, I was in a program that was doing ‘Surah Maryam' and then I was like, “oh, I need to learn more about her..”

Maryam: 39:57

And her story is so beautiful. You know, we know her as the mother of Isa -Alayhi Salaam-, who is one of the most respected.. One of the prophets that has one of the highest levels of prophethood, but we don't talk about her as much. And when I was reading her story, particularly of how she was chosen, her mother had made dua for a son and Allah instead gave them a daughter. And, you know, her mother actually made that ‘duaa’ when she was pregnant, like “By Allah what is in growing in my womb, I give to you” and this is a ‘duaa’ I made a lot in my healing journey.. that you know, whatever is there.. creativity or anything that comes out of it Allah I give that to you. But, what happened is that when I was listening to her story, she had been given a lot of gifts way before, you know, she entered motherhood, like when she was a little girl. We know that she was given fruits that were not in season and that actually inspired her uncle Zakariyya -Alayhi Salaam-.

Maryam: 40:58

But you know, when she was chosen to give birth to Isa -Alayhi Salaam-, it was a very difficult time for her. She actually made ‘duaa’ that when she was going through the pain of childbirth and she had to go away and she knew that her being a pious woman, what it would mean for society, that they would shame her. She was really scared. But Allah, you know, she actually asked at some point that you know if she could asked at some point, that you know if she could be taken away. And then Allah calls to her and I have the ‘ayah’ in front of me.

Maryam: 41:32

It's the 24th ‘ayah’ of surah Maryam. I used to recite it every day at that point in my life.. “Fanaadaahaa min tahtihaaa allaa tahzanee qad ja\'ala Rabbuki tahtaki sariyyaa” so the English translation of this is “but He called her from below her, ‘Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided beneath you a stream’ ” and Allah is telling her in her deepest, lowest moment, when you know she's all alone, outside of you know, not civilization but the urban center, and she's outside, away from everybody she holds dear. She doesn't know what's going to happen. Allah is telling her to not grieve. And then we know that when she came with Isa -alayhi salaam-, the miracle of Isa -alayhi salaam- speaking at birth was actually a miracle for her, to protect her honor, because her child is actually defending his mother and we oftentimes see of Maryam -alayha salam- as “oh her honor was that she was Isa's mother.” But it was also his honor that Allah had chosen her, the woman who has the highest level and is amongst the four most respected women overall, to be his mother. That was his honor, subhan Allah.

Waheed: 42:58

Correct, and even if you reflect on this from the Quran, when Allah mentions Isa -alayhi salaam-, he always says Isa ibn Maryam, Isa the son of Mary it's always that, subhan Allah. So he's giving him, you know, a high station by virtue of his own mother as well, you know.

Maryam: 43:08

It was so incredible to me and I was like subhan Allah, like you know, this is the most pious woman of Allah, especially, you know, at that time, and she was in so much pain that she wanted to, she did not want to live, and I was having similar thoughts at that time, you know, and I was like this is what I'm going to hold on to right now, and I would look at this ‘ayah’ very often. I actually sent this also to another sister, you know, who later on experienced gender dysphoria and it's like you know. Allah has told her and this is how Allah is telling me to not grieve, even though I felt I had this feeling that I wasn't being listened to, because my situation kept getting worse and worse and worse, and I used to wake up at tahajjud every day and be in sujood and make ‘duaa’, and I still felt like nothing was happening. But I held on to this subhan Allah because Allah provided for her in ways that she couldn't have imagined and I knew that Allah was going to provide for me, even though it just didn't feel possible, you know, at that time, and subhan Allah, subhan Allah, you know.

Waheed: 44:22 

Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah

Maryam: 44:24

Yeah, so that was something that I held on to during my most challenging time in my life, you know, when I was having these unsound thoughts about not wanting to live. And after that - I think I'll share more about this when I talk about my healing journey- but you know, when I embraced my femininity, I also knew that I needed another Muslim role model to look up to, you know, as I wanted to go into the roles of a working woman, a businesswoman and, inshaAllah, a wife and a mother, you know. And then I chose Khadija -radhiya Allah ‘anha-, and she's also another extraordinary woman, masha’Allah, she was always a monotheist. She is the first Muslim, but she was still a ‘mu'min’ in whatever she knew from her teacher Waraqah ibn Nawfal before the first ‘Wahi’, and she's the perfect example of femininity in our modern day and age. You know, she has always upheld modesty in a very, very masculine world and in a very misogynistic world, like, I don't think any time and place would be as misogynistic as ‘Quraish’ before Islam, Quraish-e-Makkah before Islam.. you know they were literally burying their daughters alive and had no respect for women. And at that time you had a woman who was ultra wealthy, who everybody wanted to marry, and she was turning down all of these proposals. You know, Abu-Jahl actually sent her a proposal.

Waheed: 45:54

Oh, wow, okay, I didn't know that, no.

Maryam: 45:56

Yeah, and she turned him down. He used to call himself Abul-Hakam back then. He used to make everyone call him Abul-Hakam. And Abu-Jahal, you know, means the father of the ignorant, and Abul-Hakam means father of the wise. And you know he apparently was far from it. But she turned him down. And then she, later on he finds out that, you know, she married Rasulullah -sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam-. She's married Muhammad bin Abdullah and he's like.. “What!? Him? She turned down me for him?!”.. And I'm sure that must have played out later on in his animosity towards Islam as well.

Maryam: 46:29

But, subhan Allah, you know, that's the kind of role model that we need, especially right now, where more women are coming in in the workplace and we're being more in our masculine. So I.. and this is something if you, if any scholar or anyone working on Islamic history is here please work on making the biography of Khadija -radhiya Allah ‘anha- more accessible these days for people in general. We need to learn from her. We don't have that many examples as we'd like, and I think she's the best kind of role model that we have of a woman, you know, who really stuck to ‘deen’, because you know she was not married for quite a while before she accepted before she got married to Rasulullah -sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam-, and so even her life before getting married to him was a very good example of you know what a woman should be like. As she raised her children, as she went about her work, she never compromised on her modesty.

Waheed: 47:35

Correct, Subhan Allah.

She was always supportive of the Prophet. I mean, she was the first person to shelter him after he came down from ‘Ghar Hiraa’ and he had received the ‘Wahi’ for the very first time, and she never abandoned him and she was always supportive of him, even before the ‘wahi’ came to him, like when he went on the quest, because he was, he was, he was her employee, so to speak, before they got married, and she entrusted him, yeah, with her businesses and she's way older than him, and it's a beautiful story, a beautiful love story between both of them and, subhan Allah, it's absolutely,..

Maryam: 48:12

It's a beautiful story in every way. You know we love idolizing love stories, don't we?

In our culture, like in every culture, you know, whether it be the Western world, the Eastern world, why do we not talk about these love stories that are very much you know, that are within lines of ‘sharia’, that are actually based in reality, you know, rather than some other kind of fiction?

And subhan Allah, like, even then, you know she had young children to take care of, so she didn't go on the expeditions herself. That's why she was hiring people, and people took advantage of the fact that she couldn't go herself and that's why she wanted an honest man. And then, you know, she meets him and then she hears very highly of him, and then she speaks about him to her friend. I think her name was Nafisa, I'm not sure and then you know she actually encourages it and Rasulullah -sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam- is shocked, you know, when, like, the suggestion is made. And, subhan Allah, it's a beautiful story of support and it's, it's a very beautiful framework for us in terms of you know how our marriages should be inshaAllah and how we should be present in our marriages which is why my request, you know share.. to make it more accessible for people like us.

Waheed: 49:40

There was one theme that you and I talked about, which is the idea of masculine and feminine energies with regards to the role of healthy men in a woman's life.

Well, obviously, you know, in ‘A Way Beyond the Rainbow’, we talked a lot about the role of the masculine in the life of a male right, and the importance of healthy masculinity. But also that in and of itself is also very important in the life of a female, right. And there's a lot of disturbance that happens there with regards to a woman or a man who is growing up and needs that kind of healthy, sturdy masculine role model. And when that role model is not available, then there is a sort of imbalance in that person's life and you had a lot to share about that. So what can you tell us when it comes to that, in terms of your own personal life and the realizations that you've had throughout the years?

Maryam: 50:37

Yeah. So first of all, just harking back to what I shared about myself earlier. Is that because I was considered tomboyish, what it tends to mean is that.. I would love for you to elaborate more on this. There are certain traits that are considered very masculine and there are certain traits that are considered very feminine. Now that doesn't mean that you cannot have, as a woman, you cannot have or you should not have masculine traits. Or that as a man, you should not have feminine traits.

But the balance is more that men should.. for the balanced energies to be, is that for men to have more masculine traits, right, masculine energies, and or operate from masculine energy more of the time, and for women to operate from feminine energies more of the time. And a lot of times for SSA women, and now in this increasingly “do, do do" world, we're living in a very masculine world. Generally, spirituality is considered to be more of a feminine energy. So we're in a very masculine world, and then women are becoming more and more masculine. You know we're taking on gender roles, or we're taking on roles that traditionally have been on, you know, things that men are mostly supposed to do. And in some cases it's not bad for women to do that, but we're reaching a point where sometimes it can become very unbalanced.

So right now, what we're noticing and this is the story for a lot of women who have ssa and even other women is that for some reason, women have… the men in their lives are not stepping up and providing the way that they need to be. Not in terms of financially, necessarily, but you know.. and women have to be in a place where they have to take on that responsibility. It's not just about money. It's about, maybe, the way a household is run and things like that. And that makes.. And a woman, when she doesn't have the space to be in her feminine; to rest, to be creative, to let go and, you know, be more free and flowing, like these are all very feminine energies. When she's not given the room to be that and she doesn't find this and she's, she can only be that when she finds safety, and that safety is oftentimes provided by the men in her life.

So when she gets really masculine, that oftentimes results in her being very frustrated as well and in certain cases, you know it can develop into, you know, SSA and such as well. But even otherwise, like I wanted to talk about this, you know, if a woman is like, “oh, I have to be working and going to a job that I really don't like day in, day out and I don't have the option to leave it”- that, I'm just speaking to so many women these days because I've very consciously tried to create a community of women, and this is something that's just really plaguing women and it's messing up our cycles, it's messing up our nurturing abilities, messing up our relationships with our spouses and, you know, our children. So, this is, yeah, this is something that I really wanted to discuss with you because you've been speaking about this for quite a while. And I think this is a conversation we need to have, definitely in a muslim context as well, more and more. 

Waheed: 53:47

Yeah, I could not agree more honestly. I think that, what you said is absolutely true, and I can also say that we are living today in a world that focuses a lot on the emasculation of men in particular, that there is this fear of men that has developed. Rightfully so, in some degrees, because of “toxic masculinity”. But again, it has gone to a certain extreme that any idea of a.. “masculine” is a threat that must be defeated or destroyed. And that is not helpful, neither for men nor for women.

You know, men need healthy male role models to develop into the men that they are supposed to be. And women need healthy role models for them to be contained and nurtured. For them to, you know, allow their feminine energy to blossom and to express itself in a healthy way. You know, Allah created us as men and women and this balance of masculine and feminine has always been kind of the emblem of this universe. And we cannot operate when one is imbalanced or when we go to one extreme or the other. There always has to be kind of that middle road, that kind of balance between both. Nowadays, unfortunately, this has been skewed so much that neither the feminine nor the masculine is in a state of balance. Wallahu ‘aalam.

This is how I look at it. And I've spoken to a lot of brothers who experienced same-sex attractions over the years, and there's this fear of “masculine”. They want to step into their masculine role, but they feel emasculated. They feel that society is painting a different picture of what a man is supposed to be and their family is rejecting them because maybe they're surrounded by a lot of women who have their own masculine wounds and they don't allow that man to develop into the man he's supposed to be, for example. That's just one example. And the woman, as you mentioned, with your own personal traumas, and this is one example of how you've experienced toxic masculinity in your own way and that has led you to reject men. But obviously, that is not helpful if you go to an extreme of rejecting masculinity altogether. Because you end up, kind of, robbing yourself from evolving or developing into the woman you're supposed to be by allowing healthy masculinity to be incorporated into who you are. And to you know, experience that healthy kind of relationship with what a masculine role model is supposed to be.

Maryam: 56:15

Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about.. since we're talking about the role of God-fearing men in our.. in how they make women feel safe. I wanted to especially talk about the role of a father in a girl's life..

Waheed: 56:25

Yes.

Maryam: 56:26

Because the thing is that the father is the first experience she has with men. He’s the most important man in her life, you know, especially when she's not married, as a child. And the thing is that, there's so much that I'm learning right now about even straight women as to how their relationship with their father affects the kind of man they end up getting married to or the way their marriage ends up being. So, for instance, if a woman doesn't feel seen by, you know, her father, or she doesn't have that, oftentimes that can lead her to wanting to be more promiscuous. Or, you know, chasing men's attention. And especially men who are not good for her, chasing their attention. So that is also really interesting for me to learn.

There are women I know that they call themselves, as you know, just really running after men and you know, wanting to dress promiscuously, as a lot of them are, like muslim and non-muslim women. Particularly non-muslim women, I think that I'm sharing with. And they say they say that we want to do that, we were jealous that, “oh, why is this guy not looking at me?” And everything. But they're like, like I said, “I didn't get that from my father. That's why you know I wanted to be like this,” and that's just really sad, unfortunately. Because the things that they then get sucked into when they are in relationships with men who are just not.. who are toxic or abusive actually, it’s very scary and it's very sad. So the girl especially needs that safety of her father, and she needs to.. And even you know, if you look at how like the ‘nikah’ and the Islamic marriage is, you know, constructed where the father is the ‘wali’ and for especially a virgin woman, you know you cannot get married without the father’s permission - the wali’s permission- . And all of this is there to protect the girl, but unfortunately right now we're living in a time where the ‘walis’ are not acting up as the way they're supposed to be, you the ‘Qawwam’. They have these ridiculous notions of who their daughter can get married to or not get married to, and that's why we begin to hate patriarchy or, you know, any time where there is a dynamic where the man has to kind of provide, it was those men. There have been men who have not been living up to it the way that it was intended to by Allah. Because this responsibility didn't just come like that either, right, Allah is going to be holding the men responsible as to how they took care of their families.

Waheed: 58:48

Absolutely!

Maryam: 58:49

It's a huge responsibility. I would even use the word burden, which I don't think unfortunately especially those men who abuse it, recognize.

Waheed: 58:59

100 percent, 100 percent and they even take advantage of that, subhan Allah! I could not agree more, and I think, if we think about.. I mean there are lots of examples of this from our cultures, whether you're talking about.. any, any culture, really Muslim or non-Muslim, but you know, I think a lot of us would identify with that to different degrees.

Waheed: 59:22

And I think, if we circle back to what you mentioned about the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and Khadija Radhi Allah ‘anha. I think this is a wonderful, wonderful example of healthy masculinity and femininity and how that connection between both of them led to the birth of a beautiful and sacred family, sacred household. And led to the kind of the guidance of our Ummah. the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam being the best role model of healthy masculinity, you know, conscious masculinity and Khadija Radhi Allah ‘anha being the the role model, the best role model of healthy femininity, and how both of them supported each other and nurtured each other. That the masculine needed the feminine and the feminine needed the masculine. And when they were healthy and safe in their own presence and together, there was a lot of healing, a lot of growth and a lot of beauty that came out of that. I think using them and making use of that, as and you know, as archetypes, really does make a big difference.

Maryam: 1:00:23

Exactly and even how he showed up as a father. You know we see how much respect he had for all of his four daughters, especially, we have the most, I think, information about  Fathima -Radhi Allah ‘anha- you know, and how much he respected her. He would stand up when she would come in. Not to say that you have to do that, but these are just.. we really need more knowledge of these parts of the ‘Sunnah’ for us to learn from in our daily lives. And there's really no better example than Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam as to how he was, especially as a father to a girl. He did not have sons that lived to maturity, but we do have examples of how he was a father to his four daughters. Even after they got married and had children of their own.

Waheed: 1:01:09

Correct. And the beauty of the like.. when we read stories about his relationship with Fatima radhi Allahu ‘anha. That is just a beautiful, beautiful dynamic. You know the way that he would treat her and their relationship and she would be the one to also protect him. When you know, back at the beginning of the ‘bay'tha’ of you know ‘the Message’ when he was abused by Quraysh and you know the famous story of when he was prostrating and praying at the ‘Kaaba’ and the ‘mushrikeen’ would throw filth on his back and then Fatima radhi Allahu ‘anha would come and remove that and she was always kind of there for her father and in a very generous and loving way, and he was there for her as well. And the tons of other stories that we have from the ‘Seerah’ that talk to us about that kind of father-daughter relationship. This is absolutely wonderful and I think we all need to learn from that.

Maryam: 1:02:01

One of the things that I really wanted to talk about.. I think we were talking about the concept of ‘Qiwama’, and we have talked about it in today's discussion as well. And we talk about the man having to be a provider, and I really want to talk about this point because, especially in this day and age, it may not have.. it may not mean that he is the sole provider financially. Okay, that is not all that it means. Obviously, the man has to provide for his family and everything. But we have the example of Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, where he wasn't the provider financially. All right, but he was obviously working there.

But aside from that, the role of the masculine as a provider is not.. is to be providing emotional safety as well. And this also, connecting it back to the cycle. You know, it's not just the womb, like because of the menstrual cycle, women’s brains are, like they're up to 25 percent different depending on, you know the different.. from one stage of the cycle to another, because our hormonal cycle works on that 28 days rather than, you know, the the man's testosterone cycle. So we are like more creative in certain parts of our cycle and we're like more energetic in certain parts of our cycle when we can give a lot, but there's certain parts of our cycle where we need our cup to be filled. 

Waheed: 

Of course.

Maryam:

But, subhan Allah, because you know we're partnered with, with the masculine, with the man.. men don't have that cycle right, they have the daily cycle, so they are pretty much the same every day. So the healthy masculine can provide the grounding and then, you know, he provides when she's, she's down, and then she gives beyond what you know she can give because her cup is filled in the days that you know she can. And subhan Allah, because we have those down times, there are times it makes it easier for us to be spiritual during that. When we have a healthy male and female dynamic that the ‘barakah’ of that also flows into the man. You know there's a reason why we know that, okay, when you get married, ‘rizq’ flows to you. There's a reason Allah says that. You know He places that ‘barakah’. I think that ‘barakah’ comes so much from this beautiful pairing of the masculine and the feminine where you know one is flowing and the other is stable and they're both giving the best of each other when they are in harmony.

Waheed: 1:04:16

Beautiful!

Maryam: 1:04:17

and they have a relationship of ‘ihsan’ towards each other.

Waheed: 1:04:20

Wonderful

Maryam: 1:04:21

So really, and we also are facing an epidemic of emotionally unavailable men unfortunately. Where men are, especially right now I think we're in this.. emotions are very high in the muslim community right now. You know we're, we're really really very high in the muslim community right now. You know where we're really really rightfully upset as to you know what's happening, in different countries, and there's a lot of like masculine egoism as well as to.. and we're not able to do that, like we're not able to actually go and fight and everything. And everybody's like, yes, but I'm ready to die and this and that. But how many of us are actually ready to look into the depths of our heart? And that spiritual aspect is considered a feminine energy, but that doesn't mean that men are not supposed to have that right? Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was the most spiritual person that we know of.

Waheed: 1:05:12

Of course, of course.

Maryam: 1:05:14

But I do think getting that balance can come a lot from the healthy male female dynamic as well, in all our relationships, inshaAllah.

Waheed: 1:05:22

100%, and kind of purification of the heart. You're talking more about purification of the self, purification of the heart, getting to know yourself and getting to know the diseases of the heart and the ego and the ‘nafs’ and the different layers of the stages of the ‘nafs’. Starting with the ‘nafs al-ammara’ and then going to the ‘nafs al-lawwama’ and so on and so forth. I mean, this is a journey and kind of that is, that is the ‘jihad’.

Maryam: 1:05:43

And we all need to be on this journey, regardless of our sex and gender but men need to be emotionally available, to be present for women as well, but to be present for themselves, first and foremost.

Waheed: 1:05:55

100%, I could not agree more. Absolutely. And I think one of the main goals behind ‘Away Beyond the Rainbow' podcast, and this podcast as well, is to shed light on these themes that obviously the healing journey is a journey. We are all recovering somehow, we are all healing somehow and yes, with regards to same-sex attractions, we are kind of forced to face our traumas or our issues, you know, to come face to face with them. But this applies to anyone, anywhere really, and we all have wounds that we need to heal from. And I think, now more than ever, this is an obligation for all of us, because the ummah needs us and there's a lot of pain around the world and things are not getting better if we don't start with ourselves. And Allah says in the Qur'an, .. 

 "la yughayyiru ma bi qawmin hatta yughayyiru ma bi-anfusihim”,  “Allah doesn't change the condition of people unless they change their own condition themselves”. And it starts with us. So yeah, 100%.

Maryam: 1:06:54

And it starts with all of us, regardless of you know, not just for those of us with SSA or GD, anything. All of us are hurting, every single one of us needs to be working on ourselves.

Maryam: 1:07:06

I wanted to talk about this, this discussion that we had in the context of SSA women especially also, is that in my experience with so many of the women that I've known, who experience same-sex attraction, is that especially those who have some level of opposite sex attraction. Because in my experience I've seen that women tend to be more sexually fluid than men but, the women who are, like, really struggling with wanting to act out, or, you know, wanting to be in same-sex relationships. I've often noticed with them that and this was the case for myself as well, that at some level, we feel safer being in a relationship with a woman rather than with a man, even if there is attraction towards men. Because of you know, all of the societal trauma that we've experienced, and unfortunately, that's like I have. This is my message for even, a woman you know who may have chosen to, to be in a same sex relationship, regardless of whatever her religion might be, is that this is the reason why you're choosing to, like, really ask and reflect as to you know, where the attraction comes from, and don't be seeking women or being in a relationship with a woman thinking that it won't be traumatic, because that's unfortunately not true. You know, we've seen from experiences that female-female relationships can also be very, very abusive. And it's.. it really comes down to the healing work and, you know, wanting to realize where our fears come from, but safety is not the reason to choose, you know, a relationship with a woman. Actually a friend of mine and I were thinking of starting an anthology, and collecting stories of relationship experiences and raw relationship experiences, because I know a lot of, and especially she knew a lot of women who've been in relationships that were just really messy. And we know that domestic abuse is quite common.

Waheed: 1:09:09

Oh yeah, very high! It's higher among women who experience SSA than men actually.

Maryam: 1:09:13

It is higher amongst women.. and we wanted real stories to be out there, and we're like. You know, you can choose whatever you want to do with life, but don't choose this relationship thinking it’s a safe road, then.

Waheed: 1:09:25

Exactly because you're running away from something, running away from men because you're afraid of them. You have a wounded kind of feminine because of toxic masculinity, but then you end up in also a very harmful situation.

Maryam: 1:09:38

You attract a toxic woman.

Waheed: 1:09:40

Exactly, you end up maybe attracted to a toxic woman or being in a very codependent, enmeshed relationship. That is not helpful to you physically, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually even. And subhan Allah it's not you know, you're running from one thing, ending up with another thing that is going to be destructive, so um yeah, that is absolutely important, yeah.

Maryam: 1:10:03

Regardless of what choices you make in life or who you want to be with, we are not there to judge you or something but this, this is just a reality that I wanted to share with people who still do choose to live that lifestyle. Just don't, don't think that it'll be safer, or this is why I'm choosing it. Obviously, when in the heat of the moment, you're like, no, it's this person, but I do think it's important to do that real deep reflection work.

Waheed: 1:10:28

Right. Long-term things will start showing up and you'll realize, oh, whoops, what did I do there?

Waheed: 1:10:45

How about we kind of go back? You were telling us more about your own personal journey and the wounds that you were going through growing up. And one of the main themes in your story that you wanted to talk about was societal pressures and spiritual trauma and, more specifically, when it comes to the sexual abuse that you've experienced and what that entailed, all of the aftermath. And how that kind of also you know, the idea of marriage pressure, social pressure coming to you from your family and from people close to you how that kind of ended up being too much to handle. Can you tell us more about that please?

Maryam: 1:11:27

Yes, well, thank you. I think I've already shared earlier about some of the experiences that I had with men growing up or on the streets. But oftentimes, as parents and as guardians of children, I know that there is this wish to protect children from strangers. But oftentimes predators can be people we might not expect within our homes. And I think Waheed has very graciously done many seminars on, you know, on sexual abuse and you would know the statistics better. The highest percentage of abusers are actually people we know very well, family members?

Waheed: 1:12:10

Yeah, so the majority of abusers come from within the family, as opposed to from out of the family.

Maryam: 1:12:17

And now this doesn't mean that you start being suspicious of all your family members, but I mean the most significant.. the thing that really affected me the most was the abuse that I experienced by the hands of a family member who was also a child, because this person was a few years older than me. And it was another girl. And it's something very shocking. I don't want parents to panic about this, but to just be more aware, because for me a lot of these experiences were.. you might not call, you might not think of them as full-on abuse maybe. But they were.. it was inappropriate touching and molestation, I would say. And I.. it happened to me multiple times while I was growing up. I.. my mind at the time didn't register it as that. I was aware that this person experienced an attraction towards me, but I had a very friendly relationship. We were always there with family, mostly there with family. My mother was there, you know. Other women in our family were there and it was just not registered as a violation of your boundaries. I don't remember all of it, alhamdulillah. Because my mind protected me, I didn't recognize that those things were actually contributing.. led to my sexual trauma and me not feeling safe in my body until I was like well into my 20s, and in therapy and doing healing work. And doing ‘The Body Keeps the Score’ book club with you guys, you know. But my body remembered it. You know my mind protected me and, you know, my body remembered it because I never felt safe in my body. I shared before that you know I had sexual trauma so I couldn't, aside from not experiencing sexual attraction, I was terrified at the thought of having to do that. You know, later on, when I found out that this is something that is important and you know, I couldn't think of intimacy.

And then, later on, when I realized this, it was a very difficult time for me because I was like I just was, you know. my feelings of not feeling safe in my body just absolutely heightened. There were so many nights where I was just crying myself to sleep. I couldn't relax at all and nothing was getting better. I was just scared all the time. There was a time where I couldn't think of, you know, praying in congregation with other women, because any non-consensual touch and unexpected touch used to make me shiver and feel scared. So, you know, and the only person and I realized that growing up like the only person I ever really trusted to touch me was my mother, because she gave birth to me.

Other than that, I just never, ever felt safe. And so it affected me so badly and affected my ability to be in a relationship with someone - a future husband, inshaAllah and then, you know, it affected my ability to, at some point, even function normally. And then, you know, when I was working through this and I was trying to let go of it, what happened is that I, when you know I was dealing with so much and people in my family were like “what's going on? Why are you like not okay, and everything?” When I ended up sharing this instead of help.. like finding avenues to help me, because it was someone who was close in our family.. a lot of people were.. not a lot of people, but a few people who.. it took me a lot of strength to actually tell them. I didn't want to tell them, but when it came out, I was expected to be silent about it.

Waheed: 1:16:08

Wow.. subhan Allah!

Maryam: 1:16:09

And I'm like I am not angry at this person anymore because, alhamdulillah, I've been able to forgive her. I know what she was going through. I know it was a lot. She was a child herself. It wasn't okay, and I'm not saying that this is how we should go about it, because a lot of people are getting abused by people in power, so that's a separate matter. My, in this case, this person was also a child who was going through a lot at the time, and that's why I have chosen to forgive them. That doesn't mean that my relationship with them goes back to normal.

Waheed: 1:16:34

But that person was older or older than you at the time, correct?

Maryam: 1:16:38

They were older than me, yes, and this also happened in our teenage years, so they were mature enough to know that what they did was wrong. But, and that's why I'm saying that this is you know, you don't. You do not have to forgive your abuser or whatever. I forgave this person for myself, because I didn't want to carry this and I have chosen to have boundaries with them. I don't have ill will towards her anymore, but this is not the reason why I shared it because I wanted her to be shamed or anything.

Maryam: 1:17:07

I shared it because I was struggling really badly and I wanted people who care about me, to take care of me, help me, find support, and they wanted to, but this was too much for them and they were just not okay with it and they expected me to be silent about it and I was like.. how? I'm someone asking for help, and I felt so unseen in that moment. I have not told this to, you know, my mother, who was there. I have to like, work through that, because I think a lot of times, what also happens in an SSA case is that we, oftentimes women, end up mothering their own mother and I was like I'm struggling. For once, I want this to be about me. I don't have the space to deal with other people's emotions, so this is, this is not my.. this is not a parent that I experienced this with, but it really hurt.

Waheed: 1:18:01

And even that you weren't given the space to actually just be and experience your own emotions in a safe environment. You were even denied that.

Maryam: 1:18:09

Yeah, like, and I went to people who, like, I thought would be so, I'm just, yeah, I think this is. I just want to share this, that you know this expectation to be silent.

Maryam: 1:18:23

I'm not out there to get back at this person, but I am someone who wants to get better, so you know, this is like, we should be talking about finding the right, the right professionals to help me or other things, or community, not that.. “How dare you, how could you say this? How could you tell your father this?” You know, I don't, I don't want that.

Waheed: 1:18:53

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a very important topic and for any parents or counselors listening to us and really anyone listening to this, I think, when someone comes to you and tells you that they have experienced something as traumatizing as sexual abuse, the least thing you can do, even if you don't have any resources, even if you don't know how to talk to that person, how to comfort them, what to say, whatever, the idea that you're just there with them, listening to them, you know, embracing them, and showing them that you believe them and that you are there for them, no matter what. That really makes a big difference. You know, I like you and I've spoken about this a lot in A Way, beyond the Rainbow.

Waheed: 1:19:33

Just like you, my experience has been that when I told, for example, one of my parents, they didn't believe me and they were like, oh, why did you accept it then? Why didn't you say anything? And I understand where they're coming from. That's their kind of understanding of it, but then that's not what a child needs or wants from you. They want for them to feel safe at the moment because they're coming with something that is deeply shameful, deeply profound. They are beating themselves up with it. They're blaming themselves for something they didn't choose, that happened to them, and then they are met with even more shame and even more secrecy and silence, and that adds more fuel to the fire. Subhan Allah, so yeah.

Maryam: 1:20:18

And you know this and I've actually discussed this with subhan Allah, alhamdulillah, I have a support of you know very helpful friends and people, you know, who are therapists and all and I found out and for me this was also the case that now, especially since I've done the healing work, I've done like therapy and everything, and I don't get triggered by memories of my abuse. But the thing that hurts me more right now is this reaction from my family, or from these particular family members. You know this expectation to be silent that hurts more than the act itself.

Waheed: 1:20:57

Absolutely.

Maryam: 1:20:59

And in this case, than, the person who actually violated me, you know, because I wasn't seen, and it's a complicated situation, I get that, but I think in that space, we need empathy and we need to learn more and really, you know, be there for that person, rather than.. because I wish I never, it never happened to me, I wish I couldn't talk about it. Yes, it wasn't a full-fledged assault, but it affected me so deeply.

Waheed: 1:21:29

Correct. And I think people have different ways of navigating that and again we can't really blame people that they have the reactions that they have. But at least you know people need to take more time to kind of assess how they want to deal with the situation. And I understand that a lot of families, they won't be able to speak to the person who initiated that trauma. I mean in your case it was a teenager. Maybe there were other variables involved. Particularly if the other person is an adult, he or she has a kind of a certain stature or like a place of power that might be even more challenging to navigate. But at least I mean we're not here to tell people what to do.

Maryam: 1:22:11

And then you definitely need to address it, because that person could be doing it again if they're in a place of power.

Waheed: 1:22:18

Exactly, so the idea is, at least what you could do is to be there for the person who is coming to tell you that they have been hurt and they are wounded, to be there for them to see how you can support them. And we're not saying you need to advertise oh, my child has been so-and-so, has been abused. No, it's, the idea is that you're there for them, to support them, to give them the chance to to be heard, to be embraced, and to see what resources are available that can help them inshaAllah, overcome that trauma. And I'll link to the episodes in A Way Beyond the Rainbow, where we spoke in detail about sexual abuse, understanding its intricacies, as well as resources for healing and support. InshAllah, I hope that would be helpful.

Maryam: 1:23:01

So we also talked about marriage pressure. And then, you know, I was already in this place. I think I didn't realize that I had a history of abuse till I was well in my 20s. But I experienced a lot of societal pressure, you know, a lot of. You know, even if it's not forcing, it's like coercing sometimes to like get married and shaming people for like not getting married. And I mean my family also knew that I didn't experience attraction, but apparently that was not an issue. And maybe it's not an issue. You know there are people who can get married, but in my case, like I was also just not okay with you know, it. So that, coupled with sexual trauma, it just worsened my mental health and my trauma and it just became worse. And a lot of times, like you have this cultural imposition that's disguised as being, like it's been implied to me multiple times that I'm not a good Muslim because I'm not married, or because I'm not getting married. I'm sure you can completely relate to this.

Waheed: 1:24:07

Been there. I've heard it so many times, I'm no longer affected by this at this point.

Maryam: 1:24:13

Yeah, but especially at that moment when you're standing with your deen may not be like, as strong. It really messes you up and I think like if I didn't have a strong relationship with Allah myself. Keep in mind, like I am thinking of, you know, not wanting to live and just barely hanging by a thread, and you know, dealing with like everything going wrong, and I have no interest in these men, I don't feel seen with any of them and there's just no empathy and no concern and it's you know. I really needed to work on myself then and have a personal connection with myself. And you know what's also worse like the reason I use the word spiritual trauma is that the more I used to go towards deen, like the deeni class, the religious classes that I used to go to, the women only spaces I used to go to, every time like this is there's a khutbah before or there's like some sort of lecture before, you know a marriage that's happening, or some dua or something. The ladies there are talking about the right, the sexual rights a man has over his wife, and how women these days, because of feminism, are just not giving it and things like marital rape doesn't exist and this and that, and it's like I get it that, from a ‘Fiqh-hi’ standpoint that is the case, but please, when we're talking to people and we're talking to such a traumatized society. Like every single society, has so many stories of really violent things happening to women by their husbands. You cannot just talk about things from a ‘Fiqh-hi’ point of view. Please have empathy. Please recognize that we are all, as a society, traumatized by men. Now, that doesn't mean all men are bad, but yes, when we hear of a story where this man was brutally murdered by his, like this woman was brutally murdered by his wife[her husband], it terrifies the hell out of everyone.

Waheed: 1:25:56

Absolutely, marital rape does exist, toxic masculinity does exist and, of course, you know there is toxic femininity or toxic feminism, radical feminism, whatever you want to call it. Of course I mean we're talking about two different extremes. What we are talking about right now, what we want to achieve, is that kind of middle ground of healthy masculinity, healthy femininity. We can't really hide behind our fingers anymore. As muslims, we are notorious for ignoring things, this shouldn't be the way, no.

Maryam: 1:26:21

We should recognize why women are being drawn so much feminism right now. A lot of muslim women that I know who are, it is because we are deeply traumatized by what we see in the media about these kind of news. You know, and this is the place. You know, this is something that I think I'll talk a bit more about in my healing journey, but I was taking a course by an Islamic historian and scholar who spoke about how, you know, we cannot be teaching intimacy and marital relationships through books of fiqh, because fiqh is law. It is the extreme of something. It does not apply to everyone. Rasulullah, sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, maybe by the law, when you see it feels like in this kind of a sexual relationship between a husband and a wife, it tends to favor men, but Rasulallah sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, emphasized so much on akhlaq, especially if laughter was, you know, a man towards his wife, and we do not have empathy when we're talking about these things. Like that has been my experience as to what traumatized me a lot in these spaces, like you know, this thing that, oh, because of feminism, women are like, “oh, I, I can refuse, you know, my husband, the right to sexual intimacy,” but recognize that there are people like me and I'm not the only one. My story may be unique, but you know I'm not the only one traumatized by this, is that there are people who are sitting there who are terrified and we have not been married so we do not know how wonderful a relationship between a husband and wife can be and that can be one of rahmah, and you need to make us recognize that so that we actually want it. And then you're just talking about the rights, like you should talk about the rights the husband has. But please like, especially right now, it's very important to be trauma-informed, because if you have, if you are saying that, “oh, we're losing our girls to feminism and these feminists,” please understand why muslim girls are becoming feminists. Please do, because it's coming from a place of pain and we need empathy right now 

Waheed: 1:28:23

I agree.

Maryam: 1:28:24

So we don't get into this tit for tat that, oh, men have this and women have this, but be like, okay, how can I show up and as from a place of ihsan and attract a man who can also give me, or you know, a woman, a wife, a woman who can Iike give me something that you know allows me to show up with from a place of ihsan?

Waheed: 1:28:42

Amen. Preach sister, agreed 100%. Alright, carry on.

Maryam: 1:28:43

But I do want to mention my solution to this. I've, for some time, removed myself from those groups and I, alhamdulillah, at this point, I have a lot of very good relationships with teachers, both male and female, which helped me, you know, and I'm studying deen more, inshaAllah, I hope to, like, continue my scholarship, you know, within this. And I saw teachers who were trauma-informed, and there are some great teachers out there and I've, alhamdulillah, they have played a huge role in my healing journey. So that's what I did. That doesn't mean that you just leave yourself from Islam altogether, but find, make dua. Allah will connect you with those people, inshaAllah who will help you connect with deen without triggering you, like that, or traumatizing you further.

Waheed: 1:29:38

InshaAllah. Yeah, that's absolutely important and alhamdulillah, those people exist and they still exist, alhamdulillah.

Maryam: 1:29:44

I wanted to talk a little bit more on marriage, because we've already mentioned that. You know, these things made it worse and for me, I think one of the things that I realized is that, the few times where I felt like I had a romantic connection, you know, towards, a man, I've been in multiple situations where, I've met men with same-sex attraction who have.. it's been a very awkward situation where they're like, okay, I've never actually liked a woman, but think I would.. I actually like you and would you consider marriage. And I was like.. I have been open to actually, you know, considering it or looked into it. But the thing is that, I want to talk about this because this, this is talked about so often “oh, why don't these SSA men and these SSA women just get married to each other? Problem solved.”

Waheed: 1:30:31

Oh my God. Yeah, exactly.

Maryam: 1:30:33

The thing is marriage doesn't work this way. Especially when you listen to the same person giving a sermon on marriage and you know what. What are the criteria you should have for a marriage and everything it's like… Marriage is a lot more than just sexual attraction, and I want to talk about this because it was something I actually did explore, but in those dynamics that I was in, now, that doesn't mean, I'm mostly talking about people men who have mostly same-sex attraction and women who have mostly same-sex attraction. What I noticed is that in those dynamics I really felt like I was being a mom and that the men were actually, because of their mother wound, were looking for a mother rather than a wife. They were really in their feminine. I was in my masculine.

Waheed: 1:31:13

Amen. Say it louder for people in the back to hear you.

Maryam: 1:31:18

It was a dumpster fire, honestly speaking, like okay, it seems great. Yes, great friends, great this and whatever. No! You know. And I really felt like a mom in that situation. But the thing that I want to share is that when we're talking about the Rahmah of Allah and I'm talking about how Allah healed me, and I'm speaking to these men and women who are like, I'm so scared about my SSA and you know how about, like I go to this place, this support group, and you know be like, put my profile over there and I'm like, listen. Why is SSA… If, as an SSA person, you really want to get married, why is your spouse having SSA even a criteria? You know why is that even relevant, their sexuality? You know, why can we not focus on the ‘why’ as to, why do I want to get married and just make dua and have belief that you know what.. like we are, by putting SSA as a criteria, it's like we're limiting Allah. You want to get married? Make a dua for the most amazing partner. List down all the things that you want, like look at the relationship of Rasulullah and Khadijah radiya Allahu anha or your favorite couple, or whatever. Don't make SSA the priority, have Tawakul in Allah. Like, and, I am always reminded of this dua from Musa alayhi al salam that I invoked a lot “Rabbi inni lima anzalta ilaya min kahiren faqeer.” This was the dua he made when he had accidentally murdered the man in Egypt and he went to Madian. He was completely broke. He didn't know where he would.. was going to sleep that day. He had a bounty on his head and he met Shu’ayb radiya Allahu ‘anhu’s daughters and he just helped them out of the goodness of his heart. Because that's what you know, a Qawwam does. They go to their father, he comes in and next thing you know, boom, he gets like a great mentor who's a prophet, Subhan Allah. That's the last thing that he's seeking. But he gets a job, he gets married. Because he gets, he marries, one of the daughters of Shu’ayb alayhi al salam, and it's like it's just that is Tawakul in Allah, that he's going to sort that out. And you know what scholars actually suggest that you recite this dua if you want to get married. So it's just so what? Like yes, just please, like really just focus on yourself, like if you want to get married, and please do not advise people like, “oh yeah, maybe you can find someone [with SSA],” maybe it's written for them that, you know they marry someone who has SSA. But why are we limiting Allah? You really want to get married? Let's imagine this... expect, hope for the best kind of marriage we can have and, if Allah chooses, for it to be someone who has SSA well and good, but why? That's not all what marriage is. There's so much more to marriage.

Waheed: 1:33:46

You know, Allah defined it in the Quran when Allah was describing marriage, that it is mawadda wa rahma. You know, this kind of love and mercy, and, and that is the basis of marriage. I mean, of course, sexual relations are part of marriage, but like, they are a tiny part of marriage, they are important, but there's a larger part of marriage which involves emotional intimacy, mercy, you know. You know love and respect and all sorts of other foundations that are absolutely necessary in this relationship that we don't really focus on, and we focus on that kind of minor aspect which really, in the grand scheme of things, remains a tiny part of what marriage is really, you know.

Maryam: 1:34:25

Yeah, and if you are an SSA person, especially an SSA man who is scared about this, please go and listen to the episodes in A Way Beyond the Rainbow, where you interviewed, the, what's her name again?

Waheed: 1:34:36

Yeah, Dr Rana Khalid. So I will add the episodes on marriage and sexual intimacy. 

Maryam: 1:34:42

Please add that. It's a great resource and, honestly speaking, I think she is excellent and if you really work on other things, I'm sure Allah will, you know, open that. I mean my example is here. I recovered from my sexual trauma. Alhamdulillah, this is not a fear that you know I have anymore and I really believe that if you really really want it and if you really want a great Islamic marriage, full with mawada and rahma, Allah can make that happen. You can also have great intimacy. The resources are there. Allah can make the impossible happen. So don't make SSA a criteria when you're looking for a spouse. It's hard enough to find a spouse anyway. Don't make it unnecessarily difficult. Focus on what you want in your life. Can this person fulfill me in this way? Allah will open the rest inshaAllah for you. Make du'a for healing.

Waheed: 1:35:41

So far. You've shared with us bits and pieces of your life and your reflections so far. You know parts of your journey at the beginning and the wounds that you've experienced, and then some of the gems that you have realized later in life after going through the healing journey. So can you tell us more about how that healing journey came to exist? You know what was, what prompted you to start going deep, reflecting on all of these things, because sometimes we're pushed in a direction that we're just.. khalas, you know we're about to explode and that would be kind of the impetus that forces us to, you know, start reflecting deep down to start doing the healing and recovery work. So how did that look for you and how did that develop through time for you 

Maryam: 1:36:23

So I want to give a little bit of background before I get to like how the healing started. I already shared that, you know my mental health was really bad and the marriage pressure just made things worse, with everything else going on and everything in my life was like falling apart. I'm mashAllah a very talented person and I never really saw myself as that way unfortunately. And because of this, I just thought that I wasn't good enough. So my life was just up in flames in every way at that point, mental health was very bad, I was broke, I had no meaning in life and I, especially around the time where suicidal ideation kind of started coming up. I didn't, at that time also, like you know, I wasn't sure what was going on and then I was like okay, you know what, it doesn't matter, if things are not working out with my therapist, it doesn't matter, I need to like start looking into healing. And things just became so much worse that year. They just became really really bad, even bad, because, you know, when I started doing the work, so much stuff came up. That's when, like you know, I realized that you know I've been sexually abused. I had a string of other really sexually traumatic experiences that ended up happening, and I was just like, it felt like the more I was trying, the worse everything was becoming, and then at one point, it just felt like nothing was gonna happen. And this is like after years of like just crying my eyes out in Tahajud and feeling like I'm not receiving any answers. So that's when, like, the story of Maryam alayha al sallam became so relevant, because I was like I'm trying to get better and this is what happens.

Waheed: 1:38:05

So what were you doing at the time? Like, were you attending counseling or therapy? Were you reading books?

Maryam: 1:38:10

Yeah, I had been seeing the same therapist for four years at that point, so obviously I felt defeated, and then.. because I was like I'm actually doing the work, I'm going to therapy even though my family is against it. You know it took me a lot of strength to go to therapy and it was not working and obviously I didn't have at the time.. I didn't have friends who were therapists, so anytime that I would have life issues, my friends were my age, they didn't know how to be there for me, and everybody was just feeling so bad for me and I was constantly in, what I now recognize, in this victim mindset and so what happened is that I decided that I wanna get better. I picked up a book, or I started reading more, and things just got worse and after that, certain other things happened and my gender dysphoria just became really bad. I ended up getting hallucinations also at some point. I was really scared as to what the hell was going on. That's when I joined these support spaces, because at first I was like you know, I mean, my SSA has never been like as bad as, like I knew, a lot of other people, “Do I need this support?” but Alhamdulillah, Allah wanted me to come here and wanted me to make incredible friends who were also like, wanting to hold onto the rope of Allah, and yeah, but things were still getting worse and worse.

Maryam: 1:39:31

And then I just.. had an accident.. and I almost, I feel like it was a near-death experience, and that woke me up, but like Allah really chose to just save me in time, because I remember, like a few months before that I was like you know what, Allah, I've tried so much, I give up. Like just you know what, if I was in a car that time and I was like, if this car has an accident and I die in this, you know, just.. take me up. Like, it was that bad. And this is a year after like having suicidal thoughts anyway. Because I really like tried, you know, I tried like having connection and I did all of those things that people tell me, oh try to find friends and try to do this. And you know, oh, and I'm like trying to make more female friends and more of this and that, and nothing is happening and I’m like “I'm trying so hard.” So after my accident, it just heightened everything.

Maryam: 1:40:22

You know, I felt like I went into a depression after that because I had trouble getting out of bed. I couldn't continue my life the way I used to. I just.. wasn't even trying to go to work at that point. And then I talked to some of my friends who… I just got a wake-up call, you know, from a few of them, because they were like, we've not seen you happy in so long, and most of my friendships were long distance. I didn't have friends, you know, here [in-person]. And they were like you know, okay, you say that you went to therapy, why don't you try another thing? Why don't you try another therapist? And I was like I'm so tired of everything. And… but you know it was…

Maryam: 1:41:04

It was something.. where I heard this validation from my friends, where they were like, I see you, you're so talented and I'm so sad that you're like this, but please, like you cannot give up on life. And I asked, in that moment, like I asked Allah, and I was like “Allah, please show me what to do and I will do it.” And then I realized that you know what, actually, I don't have the power to do it, but I will get out of my own way to do it. Because, see, I'm a very logical-minded person, you know, and there are certain things that I used to look down upon, you know. Like does physical activity have anything to do with my healing my trauma or you know, and I just made this…

Maryam: 1:41:55

Okay, you know what? I'm not gonna… I'm just gonna accept any like, not accept anything.. But I will be open to things that I haven't tried before, because I thought I was doing so much and maybe to a person it would look like that “oh she is, she is going to therapy, oh, she is doing this thing.” But I didn't have the will that, you know what, whatever it takes, I get better.

Maryam: 1:42:12

Now that doesn't mean that I shut down my critical thinking mind, but I let go to Allah. And I at that point, you know, I was broke, I didn't have any money, I just I didn't have anything. I didn't have friends that I could meet with or anything. I just made dua. I changed my therapist. I felt like I didn't have much money but I had a few savings and I was like you know what, I'm gonna stick to her for like three months, at least, and see what happens. And I changed my duas in the way that I was really willing to let go. And I remember I went back to a seminar that you did, on codependency, and I was aware that I was codependent and I was so scared of reading these western books because it's like what if they say something that's like against islam and this, and that. I was really paranoid but, I just made dua.

Maryam: 1:43:05

I took out like my book of duas and I recited all of the duas on seeking knowledge, before I would like read it [the books]. And I also used to make those duas in tahajud that I only want like naa’fay ilm or beneficial knowledge. And before I would pick up a book, I would make that dua and subhan Allah, like I don't know what happened after that. It was really intense. I think I got really triggered, things became worse, but I had to go through that. I had to be able to unpack those things in order to get better. And subhan Allah, because I had this will and that I wasn't judging anything and I was very eager to get out of my victim mindset, Allah opened doors for me that I couldn't imagine. I started a gratitude practice. I was not grateful before, you know? And I really went down to very basic things of you know, being thankful for the smallest of things that, oh, you know what? I have a bed to sleep in, alhamdulillah. I started eating very slowly, you know, I would like every morsel, I would really like treasure it and be thankful for Allah for all of the flavors. Even if it was like very simple food and mostly it was really simple food, and then I realized that, oh yeah, you know, instead of maybe doing high.. my body does feel better, but maybe, instead of doing high intensity workouts, I should be treating it in.. with more love and care. And so now, like my work, and slowly you know, that's when I started learning more about the womb and now, like my workout is very much as to what my body needs and at what time, the cycle that I'm in, or what phase of my life am I in. Am I going through a lot right now? Maybe I won't do [it] like this, but it was really like, I think, the intention before doing all of these things that allowed for Allah to finally like open this thing where I became aware and I realized, and you know, I later on, now, alhamdulillah, I have a really good support and community of multiple spaces actually, of friends, and you know who are women, who are like, dedicated to improving themselves, who are like.. and it didn't happen overnight, like you know.

Maryam: 1:45:23

I remember the Ramadan after that, I just made a lot of dua that Allah you know what, I have been chasing these women in terms of trying to find better friends and things like that and it's not happening. I don't know how to do that, I just literally leave it to you, and I made dua for like the best friends that I could have regardless of where they were in the world, and subhan Allah. I think after that I landed in a course, and in all women-spaces where my closest friends now at the moment, are like all across the world, some of them I had never met before, and it was just so crazy to me. And these were women who helped me heal from my wounds and I was like I was chasing this space and looking up spaces and I just, I just could not have imagined, you know how Allah opened that. The coaches that I met afterwards, they.. it was just, it just blew my mind as to you know my teachers and coaches that they were exactly the people I needed, like their traumas or their histories were just perfectly informed for them to be giving me the support that I needed in that space of my life or in that area of my life.

Maryam: 1:46:27

I did a lot of courses, on, you know, like I did the course on the womb, I did courses on, you know, intimacy and everything, and that's where.. a lot of them were by muslim instructors, and then I found those muslim teachers that I talked about before. You know who were trauma-informed who were well versed in deen and who.. their intention was doing everything from these.. But I think I'm talking a lot right now because I'm so emotional you know, going over all of that.

Waheed: 1:46:56

Yeah, I just wanted to, can we just take a moment to just, subhan Allah, just appreciate how beautiful and merciful and amazing Allah SWT is, even though you went through all of these traumas that you've been through. You know this has been your journey and, despite all of the difficulties, you had reached a point of complete surrender to Allah. Like you know what, Allah, I'm just giving all of this up for you, giving this all to you, and asking you to take care of it. I mean, whatever you had prayed for, Allah has given that to you in the most beautiful ways. In ways that you would have never ever expected, and alhamdulillah, I mean that in and of itself, has been extraordinary in your own personal journey.

Maryam: 1:47:41

Honestly, like at this moment, I'm just slightly overwhelmed by everything that Allah has done for me, because I… my therapist made me write three things that I wanted in my five-year goal and I did not feel safe in my body at the time. And I was like, maybe in five years, if I feel safe.. if I don't cry my eyes out before going to sleep. I did, I didn't. It wasn't even sure it would happen in five years, it happened to me in three months and it wasn't because she was like such an amazing therapist. She was, you know, she figured out how I ticked. Alhamdulillah, that was Allah, and I want to emphasize right now, and the reason I'm sharing this is that none of the resources that I got.. because I was in a position I couldn't afford them, I didn't have access to them for certain reasons. None of them were for SSA or GD.

Maryam: 1:48:27

It was just.. Or Gender Dysphoria. Like I just asked Allah, Allah, please give me what is best for me. I don't know what is best for me right now. I don't know which program or which what, just guide me towards it. And subhan Allah, and you know, there were things that I was doing that I didn't even know, like, one of the things that I just started doing because one of my teachers had suggested in a course that, oh, you know, like, recite, like, let's recite surah Fatihah before every class, so at the start of every class, so that Allah opens up these experiences for us.

Maryam: 1:49:01

So, I was, and she was like surah Fatihah is healing. So I was like, okay, and I would just play for three months straight, I would just place my hand on my womb and I would recite surah Fatihah. I did not know what I was doing was Rukyah. I was just like, oh, I love the way my Ustadha recites surah Fatihah and how she sets an intention for it before we start learning about the womb, before we start learning about, you know, this relationship, between men and women and, this intimacy course, so let me just try that. And I later on found out there's another coach was saying that, oh, when we have issues with our masculine energy and everything that's stored in the womb, so the womb is the key to it. I did not know what Rukyah was. Later on I found out what Rukyah was, and surah Fatihah is like the best Rukyah, and I was like, oh, wow, subhan Allah.

Waheed: 1:49:51

And Allah was guiding you to that, without you even realizing that subhan Allah. 

Maryam: 1:49:56

And then, like I think somewhere like, someone, somewhere in your podcast or something you had mentioned that, oh, like you know, this therapist recommends that you first have a female therapist and then you have a male therapist, and I haven't been thinking like that. I had a female therapist and then I had a male coach, and then I had more male teachers, and I'm like oh yeah, that was really healing that I had these great male teachers and I was like I was not actively seeking them, you know.

Maryam: 1:50:21

And then every time I felt stuck, I would just be like, and I felt.. I still feel stuck about so many things. But especially then because there was a time where, when I started unpacking my sexual trauma, my body memories got so bad that I felt even more, like I felt even more triggered for a time. But I knew I had to pull through it. And what pulled me through it? Hasbuna Allah wa ni’mal wakeel wa ni’mal maula wa ni’man naseer. That was something I would repeat again and again and again, and I'm just blown away.

Waheed: 1:50:53

Subhan Allah, subhan Allah. I think if we can just pause for a bit and reflect on some of the important messages right now. So it's natural for people who are going through the healing and recovery journey at the beginning for a lot of the buried wounds to start coming up and there's a surge of emotions that are quite difficult to deal with. And if you're alone and if you can't, if you don't have resources to navigate through that, it can be very overwhelming and very detrimental. But you, what you had was a foundation of, you had a support system right, you felt a sense of community, you had guidance through teachers.

Maryam: 1:51:30

That happened much later. It happened about like several months in.

Waheed: 1:51:35

Okay. So let's just say you had a little bit of, you had some resources and you also had that kind of surrender and connection with Allah SWT and you were going about that through dua, tahajjud and dhikr to help you navigate that, correct?

Maryam: 1:51:50

Yes, alhamdulillah, and then Allah gave me that support.

Waheed: 1:51:54

Alhamdulillah, yep.

Maryam: 1:51:55

Yeah, so it's, yeah, I just, you know it really blows my mind away because my gender dysphoria is not something I'm struggling with anymore, it's honestly that version of me is like a past self. I sometimes look at my pictures Waheed, from a few years ago, from when I was struggling, and right now, and even when my friends meet me after a few years, they're like.. I'm glowing. You know, my smile is different. I may be wearing the same outfits, but like the way I carry myself, it's just so different.

Maryam: 1:52:32

I'm still the same me in so many ways, you know, my values are still the same, but I am a very feminine woman now, and I have other women, you know, straight women who, like I literally have some friends right now are saying that you know what, when I want to be more in my feminine, I look at a picture of you. And I just, it just blows me away because, a few years ago, I did not want to be a woman, I did not think I was a woman. It's just so crazy and sometimes, like when I'm meditating or I'm just sitting still, and mostly like around the tahajjud or fajr time like, I can see my past self who was crying her eyes out in sujood, asking Allah to make things better, asking for a response, and for years feeling like I wasn't getting a response. Like I thought I was met with complete silence. But now I can see, that not only is Allah there for me right now, but He was always there. I wasn't ready to heal at that time, or it wasn't the right time for me, or something. I was in a victim mindset then, and I also want to emphasize that, just, like, you know, first of all, like I've not just accepted my femininity but, alhamdulillah, I've embraced it. This was a level that I don't think I could have ever imagined it to be. I just wanted to get better.

Maryam: 1:53:58

That was my goal, and like, alhamdulillah, now I feel like safe, I think I can like experience marriage. I'm… like, my SSA is still kind of there, but it's not something that worries me. So I really want to emphasize on this thing, that, okay for me healing looked like this, that me becoming this completely new person in some ways, who doesn't experience gender dysphoria anymore, but never did… in my intention to heal was it that, oh, you know what, I don't wanna like, I wanna be completely straight, or something like that. That was not my focus, because there is inherently nothing to be ashamed about for having these thoughts or these feelings or these attractions.

Maryam: 1:54:45

We are still worthy and the goal of healing should be to, like, get better. And I feel like if we obsess, especially at the time where I was obsessing over, you know, wanting to get back from this, that's not when like things were getting better, but when I really submitted and let go, subhan Allah, like it just happened for me and my SSA still exists. I just want to say this because oftentimes, like when people are saying that, “oh, does it make my SSA go away? Do I develop OSA?” I don't want that to be the focus.

Waheed: 1:55:15

Absolutely and I agree with you, because yeah, 100%. Because we always get that like I want to go about this healing journey because I want to get rid of SSA, I don't want to have these sexual thoughts anymore, I want to heal my gender dysphoria, whatever it may be, and I'm like, I think maybe the intention plays a big role and you need to kind of focus on the intention that you have and I think the best. I think, instead of focusing on getting rid of that, focus on becoming a better person, overcoming your issues. You're going to grow closer to Allah SWT. Whether that means overcoming your SSA or gender dysphoria completely or partially, that's a secondary thing. And I think what you mentioned here is absolutely important.

Waheed: 1:55:56

And I think also, you know you mentioned that very beautifully early on that ayah from the Qur'an in relation to Sayyidina Musa, alayhi salam.

Waheed: 1:56:05

You know it's a state of complete surrender, complete brokenness and humility in front of Allah SWT that you have literally nothing, you don't know anything, you have zero resources and you're just giving it all up for Allah SWT and asking him “Ya rab, I don't know what to do, I don't have anyone, I just I am zero, and I'm giving all of this up for you and I'm asking you to please guide me to what is right for me, because you know me more than I know myself and you know what is best for me and I'm asking you to guide me.” And that kind of unfolded in front of your own eyes. It did take some time, because Allah has His own timeline, but alhamdulillah, I mean, this is a testament to how you embodied that ayah, and how Allah SWT has opened things up for you in ways that you could have never imagined. So, alhamduliillah, I mean, it's just kind of reflecting on that, meditating on that is just extraordinary.

Maryam: 1:56:56

I wanted to actually share something here. Because it's.. the healing journey has still been messy and I mean, I've had a tricky relationship with my father. I don't want to go into the details of it, but I'm not gonna lie, he's been like the most important person in my life, unsurprisingly. And it's been complicated, we have a lot of respect for each other, but it's been difficult for him to be emotionally available for me, and there was a like.. I'm a very logical minded person, so a lot of the things that I was doing it just did not make sense to me. There was this, different modalities that I came across. One of the things has been, I think it's a Hawaiian prayer called Ho'oponopono and it's, it actually emerged where you would, where if two people had an argument, they would make each other say that and I think it's four words, it's four phrases. It's like I love you, thank you, I'm sorry, please forgive me. In this order, I don't know whether I'm sorry comes first or I love you, and this is something that I had to like do it to myself because I didn't love myself.

Maryam: 1:58:08

It was the hardest thing I've ever done you know looking into the mirror, into my eyes, and then I tried to do it for every single relationship that I wanted to heal, if I couldn't directly heal it, and I think the most profound experience that I had was when I did it for my father and I remember I was really bitter at that time, so many things from my childhood had triggered and I was doing this with a friend you know who was a therapist and she was like, how long are you going to attach yourself to, you know, the victim mentality of you know, this happened to me or that and everything. And I felt, you know, at the end of that talk, I just felt like everything was done, but it was Thursday that day and something happened.. like it was so after maghrib, you know, it's the night of of jum’a and we had a rainstorm, a thunderstorm happening and the night of jum’a, apparently like, there is a hadith on it, I don't remember like whether it's Sahih or Da’if, but it's that you know, du'as get answered on the night of jum’a, but either way jum’a is the best day in the week.

Maryam: 1:59:14

So I just sat silently with Allah and I was just like I don't want to, I don't want to carry this anymore. And I was really emotional and I made dua and then I closed my eyes and I saw my father in front of me and I, you know, somehow I said these words to him. And I, kid you not, I, Allah chose to show me how my father felt, because I have not seen my father cry. Or he very rarely does and he hugged, and he does not hug me, and he hugged me and he cried and he said the things that he could not say, Obviously this didn't actually happen. This is me seeing it, and later on I had a teacher who told me that Allah chose to show you his inner haal.

Maryam: 2:00:00

But then what happened was so profound, was, it wasn't just the fact that I healed in that moment, but, I saw memories of me when I was a baby and held by him, and I saw him be excited and nervous about being a father, and then I saw him doing things like you know.. I saw him playing with me and saying things like oh, we're gonna do this so that she becomes more intelligent later on. We're gonna do this so that you know, the shape of her head is fine, and this and that, and being all excited, and then.. I remember it was this thunderstorm was raging outside and it's raining, and I, you know, dua is also accepted like when it rains, and and then I'm in this state where I'm seeing all of these things, and then I'm seeing memories from my childhood, you know, after I was a baby, where we were playing together and everything, and then I could feel what he was feeling and, in that moment I was like you know, he hasn't said this to me, but I know how he feels about me. And I have not been able to let go of it, alhamdulillah. It was a very interesting experience, very healing experience, and it only came from Allah.

Waheed: 2:01:16

Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah. So you said he was mostly during your childhood. He was physically present, but emotionally absent. He wasn't really directly involved in your life.

Maryam: 2:01:28

Yeah, that's been my biggest grievance. So you know it was, and I wasn't focusing on how he had been and obviously it would be better, you know, if he could say these things. But, and there are others, serious things that have happened. But you know I can't change other people. I can work on what I have control over, which is myself. But at least knowing this, seeing this, having an appreciation for that. I don't like, I don't have this need for him to be like that anymore. I'm an adult, now. And there are things I don't have control over.

Waheed: 2:02:07

And you understand his own personal limitations, that he was probably doing the best that he could at the time. And you know, even though you didn't get your needs met.

Maryam: 2:02:18

The thing I want to say is that rationally, mentally, logically, I've been able to understand that because I'm someone who lives in my head a lot, but my emotions were still left unaddressed, right.

Waheed: 2:02:32

Which is valid.

Maryam: 2:02:33

So, I know that someone did this, so I needed to heal that part of me. That I just accept that, okay, you know this is the case. So this is something he may never be able to say to me in my face. He may never be able to hug me himself, or be that vulnerable, but I know that this is what's going on and maybe that's enough for me. I think, with our parents, like that's what we can do because, you know, this sort of thing, it affects how we see our relationships.

Maryam: 2:03:02

I mean, I got into this because I was in therapy for a work related thing, work relationships and this came up, that oh, I have this father wound. I mean, I knew that things were weird with my father, but I was like, oh my god, this thing that's happening to me in work, this is because of this thing, and I just cannot let that affect me anymore, you know, I want to go live my life and I have a good relationship with him, alhamdulillah. I cannot always be like, oh, I wish and, honestly speaking, when I let go of this, Allah actually made things better with my parents. It surprises me how they're showing up now.

Maryam: 2:03:41

And that's another layer that I wanted to talk about, actually, because what nobody prepared me for is that, alhamdulillah, I was healing. But I realized that, you know, alhamdulillah I recovered from my sexual trauma, alhamdulillah my gender dysphoria was something behind me. My SSA doesn't bother me, I haven't been triggered by it in years. But, I was doing these weird things. I remember, like, I didn't realize that, even though I had healed, I was so attached to the identity of, “oh, I'm the girl who has SSA, I'm the girl who has like gender dysphoria, and I'm the girl who is, like you know, quirky and this, and that.” I actually was sabotaging things that were happening for me, because I could not see myself as this new person. And I remember.. it's been so weird because, like a year ago, like especially now that you know I'm often more open to marriage or other things. It was so weird and I felt, like you know, I wrote this actually, to myself that I feel like I am wearing this new outfit that is amazing. It's beautiful, it makes me.. it fits me so well, it makes me look so good. Yet when I look in the mirror, it's so foreign to me, because it's so different from how I used to be, that I still need time to accept myself. I need to let go of an identity that no longer serves me, and it's been tragic.

Maryam: 2:05:09

Nobody tells you this thing, but you know what you're thinking. Oh, my god, I want to get better, I want to at peace with myself. And then you get better and you're like I still don't feel great because what the hell? I spent so long trying to make sense of my whole life, trying to make sense of who I am. I know now who I am. Now, all of a sudden, I get better, because I wanted to get better. Now I don't know who I am anymore.

Waheed: 2:05:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely I think, yeah, I think it's it's important for to people to realize that when a person is in so much pain at the beginning of that journey and they realize that we're hanging on to that identity, whether it's the idea that I have same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, or I'm holding on to pain or to trauma or to grief or to a victim mindset or what have you, you know, you're clutched to that because, because that's what you identify with and you feel safe with that.

Waheed: 2:06:04

And when you go about the healing journey and you start to, you know, dismount or like, let go of all of that and let go of all of that baggage. There is that moment of uncertainty, which is okay, well, I let go of that. So that has been part of my “identity”. I've been kind of too attached to it and now it's gone. So what the hell am I supposed to do now, you know? This is too much for me to bear.

Waheed: 2:06:31

That is a very scary thing, you know. So how were you able to deal with that?

Maryam: 2:06:36

Yeah, honestly, I was just crying my eyes out for a few days because it was something that I didn't recognize immediately. I went, I was with my therapist, so a lot of the, I'll talk about that later but I was in a session with my therapist and we decided to do a meditation. And at the end of the meditation I realized why I sabotaged something in my life, which was that I was tied to this identity, and then I just kept crying for the next two weeks. And Allah also.. I had another spiritual experience. Allah chose to show me someone’s haal. And my friend.. I had some good friends, and she was like obviously this is gonna happen.

Maryam: 2:07:14

You're growing and I had to allow myself to experience the grief. Now I still struggle because right now I'm grieving something else and you just have to be and accept that you know what? Maybe today I'm going to cry and maybe I need to let myself cry because, coming back to another thing that I'm dealing with which I want to share because I know people are going to go through this, is that I've had a lot of pain. And a lot of anger towards my parents for the marriage pressure, for other things, and now that I've made dua, my parents are showing up in a very different way, and I'm so glad that they are, that you know my younger siblings don't have to go through what I did, that subhan Allah they're coming from such a place of care. And the fears that I had before they're no longer valid. But I went through it for so long. That part of me is like why didn't I have that then? 

Maryam: 2:08:20

And then part of me feels ungrateful and right now like I'm emotional and it's okay. I am now choosing that it's okay for me to feel this way. And that if emotions come up, I don't have to be that girl anymore who says I don't cry my eyes out, it's okay, because I will go and I will sit for Allah and I will allow myself to experience that grief, and I will thank Allah for allowing me to see this change, and then, in time, Allah will make it better. And I will also thank Allah for giving me this awareness that this has gotten better. But it will sting. It will sting and it does sting and it sucks at that moment, because you're like I've been doing this for so long and I'm still stuck and my life is still not sorted out. So, like when I'm gonna be pretty open now, this particular thing that I told you, that I'm feeling, that I'm grieving about you know how my parents are now better.

Maryam: 2:09:22

This came up a few weeks ago, like when you and I were having our first conversation and these last two weeks I sat down and I let myself feel that way and then I had to go back… and this part of me was really frustrated with certain other things that I'm still stuck with and everything.. and part of me went back and I went over all of the things that Allah opened up for me. But even the times when, I, my answers, my duas, were answered, you know, before I started my healing journey and I tried to write a gratitude letter to Allah and I was like, okay, what were the things that I did at the time? Like I feel stuck about certain things in my life right now, what were the things that I did that allowed me to feel safe in my body? And I realized that it was just every single day I was thankful to Allah, before I went to sleep. It was every single day I chose to surrender to Allah.

Maryam: 2:10:16

And it's messy. Sometimes you need more tools for certain things. Sometimes other things happen, sometimes you know you need someone else's support, but we have to give ourselves that compassion and that grace.

Waheed: 

Amen.

Maryam: 2:10:30

I'm really hard on myself because at this point I was really like you know what it's been this many years? Why has this not happened? What the hell? It’s a personal failing and then I was like no, some of us, especially those of us you know who have been through these kind of things that we've been through, SSA, trauma.. some of us have our work cut out for us.

Maryam: 2:10:53

It's gonna take us a while, and one of the things that a friend of mine said who's's a coach. She was like, I see this. She doesn't know what I've been through actually, but she was like I see this darkness in you and I know you've been through a lot. But you know what, when Allah chooses to heal us, the post-traumatic.. we talk about post-traumatic stress, the post-traumatic growth that comes in.. afterwards, subhan Allah.

Maryam: 2:11:21

And I'm experiencing that post-traumatic growth in certain areas of my life. I am experiencing things I could have never imagined, like this healing, with my parents being another version of themselves, subhan Allah. That's just one of them, and people around me can see me fly and I think about, oh, my duas are getting answered and oh, yes, I've been praying salawat. So Allah chose for this to happen, and then, I need to pause. And then I sat down to Allah, in front of Allah and I was like, yes, subhan Allah, my duas are answered. Yes, I'm safe in my body. Yes, my gender dysphoria is in the past. But the biggest blessing is not that. The biggest blessing is that Allah chose for me to be on this path, to be Muslim, and to give me this awareness of this connection with him and that he is my Rabb. And maybe it's cheesy, but that is the biggest blessing at the end of the day.

Waheed: 

Amen.

Maryam: 2:12:23

Just sitting here and recognizing that Allah chose for me to be His abd and everything else then falls into perspective. 

Waheed: 2:12:38

Absolutely it is indeed the biggest blessing, alhamdulillah, 100%. Thank you for the reminder, Jazaki Allahu Khair. So you told us a little bit about your father. Would you mind telling us about your relationship with your mother growing up? How was that?

Maryam: 2:12:48

Yeah, I think I mentioned a little bit before, my mother has been a very loving mother but, in many ways I felt like I had to be there to help her emotionally regulate. And kind of be the mother in the situation at times, and I think there's this joke that happens. My siblings joke about it a lot. My sister actually sent me a meme and she's like: “Parents be like - you know, eldest daughter is the third parent. Parents be, like eldest daughter is the parent. Parents, be like eldest daughter is my parent.” And this is an experience that I think a lot of eldest children have, especially eldest daughters, and it's no surprise that a lot of the women that I've connected very deeply with are women who have had the same birth order as me.

Maryam: 2:13:50

But you know, I have to recognize that, and it's something that still happens, right, because we're now at the age where our parents are getting older and for everyone now you know you're now finding yourself at this is that, oh, you may be like having to parent your parent, because they're getting older. So it's interesting, you know you're having to work through that, but reminding yourself of their pain. Like I saw my mother be in her wounded feminine all her life, you know, and like wounded feminine is like toxic feminine traits, like victim mindset. “Oh my god, I can't do this.” And I was very annoyed. I was like, “No! Women can be empowered and I'm not like this and I'm not like her at all.” But at the same time, I felt like I had to be there for her, and it's something that, alhamdulillah, Allah has chosen to heal her quite a lot, in terms of how she shows up. And I always, in the last couple of years, ever since I went into my healing journey, I always try to have a positive mindset, I try to reframe things, but when emotions come up, I sit with them to regulate them, and I, you know, my parents are still very much part of my life. I have to still be there for them, but I don't have to feel that bitterness that I used to feel before. So I have better boundaries. Boundaries has been really helpful. Boundaries are, I used to like, when I started reading the book on co-dependency, which talked about boundaries, I was like, oh my god, this is like un-Islamic. And then I had to.. I was so grateful that I got to sit with, like you know, religious people and I, you know and this is another grievance that I have like the religious space that I was in. I was. I remember I was looking up a tafsir of something and it was.. It didn't even have anything to do with human relationships. It was a tafsir of surah Waqiyah, which is a surah on, like, the day of judgment, and it's all about the destruction that happens and everything. And I don't know how this tangent went and the teacher just goes like, oh, and we should live for other people and there is happiness in living for other people, instead of living for ourselves. 

Maryam: 2:16:00

As a recovering codependent, it's such a triggering thing

Waheed: 

Yeah I know

Maryam:

So, alhamdulillah.. I was so triggered by it, a few weeks after I ended up doing a course called Islam and the philosophy of emotions or something, the Islamic philosophy and emotions, and one of the biggest things that.. takeaways for me was that, you know, there's a Principle One thing, which is my relationship with Allah, my relationship with myself. There are certain bare minimum things that we have to do, and then our relationship with everybody else comes in. And obviously I've broken down into really simplistic form, but I was like, oh, just because ‘huqooq ul ibad’, or rights of people, are there in islam, doesn't mean I sacrifice certain things for myself. I learned what, how to prioritize and what was really important and how I could have boundaries without being selfish, and alhamdulillah, I used to be scared that boundaries would destroy my relationships. Boundaries saved my relationships because, right now, like alhamdulillah, it improved the relationship I have with my parents.

Maryam: 2:17:02

There's certain people from my childhood that I've had to let go of, and unfortunately, because it was just really toxic and other things, and they were very close to me and I have to grieve them. But I realized that the reason it got to that level was that there was a lot of toxicity in that friendship and they could have been salvaged and it wouldn't have had to reach that point if we, if I, had boundaries before or if we as a family had boundaries, and it's like, oh you know. Because I can't change the other person right, as much as I love them, but I can stop sacrificing myself for them. 

Waheed: 

Beautifully said.

Maryam: 2:17:42

That's been really beautiful.. 

It's just, there's so much stuff that I can share Waheed, but you know it's been like years of my life, so we can't talk about all of this. But whatever comes up, but right now, yes, alhamdulillah, my relationship with my parents has.. Okay. I want to actually talk about another thing. I used to always do things to impress my father, or, like you know, his opinion used to really matter for me and I realized that I couldn't keep chasing his, you know his changing goal posts all the time. But what happened is I realized that even in childhood, the times where things have been like the best between us, or when he, because I used to be frustrated, I was like I'm telling him this, he's not understanding what is that. You know his nagging behavior, which not just men hate. Everybody hates. I hate being nagged. And then I realized that you know what the times that things have been.. worked so well has been, when I've inspired him and I have inspired him as a child even, so, I let go and I went back into my feminine and I just did things my way.

Maryam: 2:18:47

You know the new things that I was learning and sharing and everything, and slowly I noticed that he started coming towards that, and getting a recognition of that, and I was like, this is like feminine energy, right? Like especially you know, this is something that happened with my father, but in a husband-wife dynamic as well, women often fall into this nagging thing and, especially as a husband, you cannot treat him and this is something that happens that women tend to mother their husband, and that's just not a good thing for a relationship. But we cannot do that.

Maryam: 2:19:20

They're not our sons. We must inspire them, and then you can.. and that's a skill that you know, you have to learn and, like being in the feminine also means being open to receiving. We cannot receive compliments. If someone tells you “Oh you're pretty”, like, “oh my god. No, I don't think so. No.” “Oh you're smart.” “No, I don't think.. I'm not that smart.” even if you don't say that, that's [what’s implied], so just being able to receive a compliment also.

Waheed: 2:19:48

Exactly. And not just women, I mean also men. I mean I see that with men all the time

Maryam: 2:19:50

Yes! It's like we just cannot do that.

Waheed: 2:19:58

Yeah, absolutely. If I were to ask you where is Maryam right now? Where are you in terms of your own spiritual growth, mental growth, emotional growth? Where are you personally, right now?

Maryam: 2:20:09

Honestly, like maybe a few hours ago, I would tell you that, “oh yeah, you know this and this stuff is just not going on in my life and I'm just not doing that great spiritually and my salah is not great and everything.” But coming back to everything we've shared and coming back to gratitude and recognizing, it's like. I'm at peace, alhamdulillah, I am enough for myself. And I'm enough because I have Allah. And I know that I'm worthy inherently, even if I'm flawed, even if I'm not perfect. That's something we have to remind ourselves, because we're never going to be happy. This is the state of the insaan, no matter how much Allah gives, we're like “No, but I don't have this.” But letting go and being content with what we have.

Waheed: 2:21:06

And trusting Allah SWT with everything which your story basically teaches us. 

Waheed: 2:21:24

We've talked today about a lot of wonderful themes and you were very vulnerable and open and I genuinely thank you for all of these wonderful lessons that you've taught us, alhamdulilah. If you were to give us a few take-home messages for the audience today, for anyone listening, what are some things you would like us to remember from your story?

Maryam: 2:21:48

I think, especially for our brothers and sisters who are experiencing same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria or these kind of desires, is that my main takeaway is that you know, know my desires, they do not dictate or diminish, nor did it diminish or decrease my worth. We are worthy as Allah created us. And for me, like, my healing may have looked like recovering from gender dysphoria and maybe developing, you know opposite sex attraction, that has never been the goal. It was an unintended consequence. My goal from the beginning was like to be emotionally regulated, to feel safe in my body, and the biggest, biggest, biggest thing was my connection with Allah, because that is the thing that put everything else in place. And the purpose of a Mu’min's life is not to get married or have children or make a lot of money. And, yes, marriage and children are incredibly beautiful joys and blessings and rahma that Allah has given us in this life, and they really make life worth living, they're not our life purpose. And a Mu’min's purpose is much bigger than that. You know. It is to worship Allah, it is to be His Abd in the way that Allah made it permissible within the boundaries he ordained, and marriage between a man and woman is something within that boundary. So enjoy the things that Allah has given us, and you will… There's a lot of joy in very simple things that we often ignore, and that's where gratitude should stem from. Like I talked about me having my very simple meal, by myself, and enjoying that, me sitting on the grass and feeling the wind touch my face. Those are very simple joys available to all of us and we should be focusing on, you know, those things too at times. So it's just, I came here because I wanted to share that. You know, life doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, and it can get better. It can get so much better and you know, like, just don't make the benchmark for recovery and healing, the erasure of SSA and GD. There's so much more, especially like the brothers and sisters you know who are experiencing these things. I, we know a lot of you personally. There is so much that you have. There is so much that life has to offer. Let's just not completely be obsessed with the forbidden desires that we have. Being better means being actually content and happy, having good mental health, and it's just especially right now, in this climate, I'm not negating, you know, the pain that we have, but subhan Allah, like seeing our brothers and sisters in Gaza.. That was also something that gave me so much strength. It made me forget, like, everything that I was going through, and, at the same time, it doesn't mean that I have to deal with, you know, the pain that I have. Allah hasn't promised to make things better and Allah made them better for me. It can happen for you too. It just might not look like how you may have thought it would. And yeah, this brings back to this Ayah that I constantly remember every time, you know, I'm like, oh my God, this dua I made got accepted:

“قَدْ جَعَلَهَا رَبِّي حَقًّا” 

Indeed, Allah made it true, and, inshaAllah, like Allah will make this true. You just have to believe in Him and aspire for the best and make audacious duas. Why limit Him? Make dua for everything in your life. Not just your SSA or GD, like just every single thing!

Maryam: 2:25:29

And believe that it can happen, and it will happen in its own timing, inshaAllah, and have the yaqeen that it will happen. 

Waheed: 2:25:45

Indeed, indeed, alhamdulillah, beautifully said. So at the end of every interview, I like to ask my guests a couple of questions, and these can get a bit emotional, so feel free to, you know, take your time to think about them, or if you don't want to answer them, that's up to you. But I like to ask my guests, you know, if they were to tell someone in their life something that they weren't able to say to them before, what would that be? And as we listen to your beautiful story, those people that come to mind would be, for example, your father, your mother and maybe your younger self. So if you were to say something to your father that you have not been able to tell him before, what would that be?

Maryam: 2:26:47

I really wish that you saw me when I was just sitting a few feet behind you, wishing that you could understand what I was going through. I wish back then you had, even though I've accepted that that didn't happen, but yeah it would have meant a lot to me.

Waheed: 2:27:06

And what about mom? What is something you wish you could tell her that you haven't been able to tell her?

Maryam: 2:27:13

I wish she could have been the kind of mom that she is right now, to me 12 years ago. It would have saved me from a lot of unnecessary pain, even though I accept how things happened.

Waheed: 2:27:32

If you were to go back in time and talk to your maybe younger self, like the teenage Maryam or the young adult Maryam, what would you tell her?

Maryam: 2:27:43

That you're enough and you should believe it, regardless of whatever thing that you tell yourself. You're just fine as you are. Your worth.. you don't have to do, you don't have to prove yourself to anyone.

Waheed: 2:28:00

Sister Maryam, this has been an honor for me. This, recording this episode has been a beautiful journey. Thank you for being open with us, vulnerable, sharing very intimate details about your life. I salute you. I think I can speak on behalf of the audience when I say, Jazaki Allahu Khair, you are a true gem. May Allah bless you and increase you and keep you steadfast and always allow you to be connected to him in the most intimate and beautiful ways. And inshaAllah. May Allah pave the best way for you moving forward, wherever that may be, however that may be, inshaAllah, beautiful things will open up for you in the most unexpected of ways, as they have opened up for you, alhamdulillah. I am very thankful that you have joined me on this podcast and we have learned so much from you, and I hope that the audience has learned a lot of beautiful lessons and take-home messages today in this episode. So thank you very much, Jazaki Allahu Kheir, may Allah bless you and increase you always.

Maryam: 2:29:00

Jazaka Allahu Kheir, thank you so much for having me. It's been an interesting experience.

Waheed: 2:29:04

And with that we come to the end of today's episode. I hope you have enjoyed it and found value in the content. I would like to kindly ask you to hit the subscribe button if you have not done so already, to make sure that you don't miss any episodes, and if you have enjoyed the podcast so far, please make sure to give us a good rating, as that helps make the podcast more visible for people. And if you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, roll over the link in the episode show notes and fill out the form, and if you have any questions or comments or suggestions, feel free to email me anytime on voicesfrombeyondthereinbow@proton.me. Talk to you in the next episode, inshaAllah, this has been Waheed Jensen in Voices from Beyond the Rainbow. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuh.