Voice #2 - Ishaq: "No More Running: A Revert’s Climb from the Ashes of Desire"

Searching for love in all the wrong places led Ishaq down a path of destructive relationships, identity confusion, and spiritual emptiness. Growing up in a non-religious household with an emotionally distant father and overprotective mother, he found himself defined entirely by his same-sex relationships.

Despite living openly gay in an accepting environment, something felt profoundly wrong. The constant cycle of relationship peaks and devastating crashes left him questioning everything. When a chance encounter brought a devout Muslim man into his life, Ishaq was struck by something he'd never witnessed before: genuine peace.

What began as curiosity about Islam transformed into a profound spiritual awakening. Through prayer, Ishaq discovered strengths he never believed possible within himself. The journey wasn't smooth—he lost most friends, wrestled with reconciling faith and sexuality, and had to completely rebuild his identity. But through therapy, healthy male friendships, physical discipline, and spiritual surrender, he found what decades of chasing relationships couldn't provide: purpose and contentment.

Today, Ishaq offers a powerful message to others struggling with same-sex attraction or considering Islam: "This feeling of emptiness inside is something everyone experiences, and the void is filled with God... Islam doesn't erase you. It refines you." His story challenges us to consider that healing sometimes comes not from embracing desires, but from wholeheartedly surrendering to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

Chapters

• 3:57 Opening remarks
• 6:08 Early Beginnings and Struggles
• 36:07 Disillusionment with the LGBT community
• 53:01 Discovering Islam and taking the Shahada
• 1:19:58 "No more running!"
• 1:42:00 What would you tell them if you had the chance?
• 1:46:00 Ending remarks

Transcript

Waheed: 3:57

Assalamu alaikom wa rahmahtullahi wabarakatuh, and welcome to a new episode of “Voices from Beyond the Rainbow”. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining me in today's episode. My guest today is brother Ishaq, who is joining us all the way from Canada to share with us his story. We talk about relationships, living the gay lifestyle, and feeling dissatisfied with the LGBT community, and then finding Islam, struggling to surrender, and then how embracing Islam and submitting to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala came about in the most extraordinary circumstances. We talk about shame and about connection and belonging. We talk about healing and growth and recovery, and we talk about masculinity and about striving on this path towards Allah. Ishaq has a lot of gems to share with us today, and I cannot wait for you to listen to today's episode. So, bismillah!

Waheed: 5:03

Assalamu alaikom brother, and welcome to Voices from Beyond the Rainbow. 

Ishaq: 5:08

Wa alaikom assalam wa rahmatullah, Waheed, how are you? 

Waheed: 5:10

I am good, alhamdulillah. How are you? 

Ishaq: 5:13

Alhamdulillah. I'm very good.

Waheed: 5:14

Good, excellent, alhamdulillah. So, I am very excited to share with you your story, and I am proud of you. I'm honestly very grateful that you are here today, and I cannot wait to help you share your story with the audience. So, as many of my guests, you have chosen to talk about your life in a chronological order. So before we begin, inshaAllah, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Ishaq: 5:36

Of course. I'm a man from Canada, in my thirties, currently single. I am from an English and French Canadian descent, and I work as a telecommunications service technician and also part time as a plumber. I've been Muslim for about two and a half years now. But I’d say my exploring of Islam began probably closer to around four years ago, but officially I took the Shahada (declaration of faith) about two and a half years ago.

Waheed: 6:01

MashaAllah! Well, thank you for that, and inshaAllah, we'll get to learn more about that during today's episode. So, mashaAllah, when you and I were talking about the different themes you wanted to discuss in this episode, you kind of broke things down into different themes. And for every theme, there is like an anchor verse and some intentions, which I absolutely love. So for this theme, would you like to read out the verse and tell us why you chose that one?

Ishaq: 6:24

Of course, so there's a verse that well, there's many verses that stick out for me, but one of my favorites is Surah 39 verse 53 where Allah says: "Say O my servants who have transgressed against themselves by sinning, do not despair in the Mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins." And this would become especially relevant for me at the later stage in my life, where I lived as an openly gay man for many years, with all the typical trappings of that world, you know, clubbing and etc, etc, with emphasis on the etc, you know. I wanted to escape. It was a means to feel good and to not feel pain, because I was dealing with a lot of pain, a lot of pain, and I didn't want to be alive a lot of the times, and in those moments where I would engage in these activities, I would feel like “Ahh.. This is what life is about”, you know? So I hung on to this idea that if I were to find the right man who would take care of me, then everything would be okay. You know, I would stop being sad, I would be happy, I would be content, I would have peace. So that was something that I anchored my identity around. 

But even though, outwardly, I was accepted, like I would say, which is probably not the case for maybe a lot of your guests, they come from, like, a Muslim background or religious background. But for me, it wasn't the case, right? I came into a non-religious family, and they were very accepting when I told them about my orientation at the time, I thought that it was just a step that every “gay person” had to go through. And yeah, I thought that my words would be over once I told them, but really, I mean, I just constantly felt anxious, depressed, and purposeless, and outing myself to a bunch of people did not take away from that pain. In fact, it only seemed to compound it. And I built this sort of victim narrative where I would justify more destructive behaviors. So it was like a vicious cycle.

Waheed: 8:42

So, if we can just go back a little bit and maybe you can walk us through how you found out about yourself, like, how did you start developing these attractions?

Ishaq: 8:50

Right, well, I first realized that I had SSA (same-sex attractions) when I was, say, 12 to 13 years old, about when I started going through puberty, right? I felt different. I didn't really know, couldn't really put my finger on it, but I just felt that there was something different about me. I felt a little bit more sensitive than the other boys. I wasn't interested in sports. I would prefer to hang out with the girls. And I then discovered eventually that I thought boys were mysterious, and that they were also kind of, you know, with the mystery comes a sort of eroticism, that you make an idea in your mind, if you don't know something, it becomes like mysterious, yeah, that would kind of crystallize into my attraction to men. So that was that. And I never felt any attraction as a teenager growing up, I never had any sort of opposite-sex attraction. I knew that it was the norm, but I just resigned myself to the fact that I was not normal. Because I was different, I was wrong somehow.

So yeah, when I was quite young, I did experience an event in my early childhood, which I believe to be at the genesis of my SSA, and it was quite a traumatic experience, really. I had a group of friends, and we were about the same age, about nine to 10 years old, I would say. And there was this older boy who was kind of like the older cool kid, and he was about, say, 13 to 14 years old. And when we would get together, we'd play video games. And I just looked up to him, I thought he was like, a really cool guy, you know. And then one day we would get together with all the kids in the neighborhood. We were in my tree house. My dad had built a treehouse in our backyard. And I just remember there was this idea that was thrown off like, “Oh, what if we were to expose ourselves to one another?” And I don't remember why this was thrown out there, it was just thrown out there. So I had this sinking feeling of like, “I don't want to do that. I don't want to be here.” But there I was right, and there's this older kid who I thought was really cool, and in my mind, he could do no wrong, right? So I just sort of didn't say anything and went along with it. And when it came to be my turn to, you know, remove my clothing and show myself, I refused. I said, “No, I don't want to do that.” It felt wrong, and I didn't do it. I was sort of looked at in a way that was like, “Well, but how can you say no?” And I was like, “Well, it's just wrong. I don't know. I don't feel comfortable with it.” So that was that. 

But the traumatic moment didn't even come from there, I would say, it was the aftermath of that. I was then confronted by the parents of one of the girls who was present, and who also happened to be the lady who babysat me after school. I went to a French school, so I would get home earlier before everyone else. So that's why they babysat me. Anyway, so my state of mind at that moment was, I felt a lot of shame, because I was being confronted semi publicly, like the two parents, and you had three other kids who were there, and they had gathered me there, and they said, “Oh, what you did was very wrong”, and it was like painted as if it was my idea, although it was not my idea. Probably because they thought, well, that older boy is his friend, right? And I just remember feeling in that moment like I wanted to die. I felt an immense amount of shame, like I felt like I was a disgusting little pervert. And to instill that idea in a young child is wrong. And I didn't see it that way, because I thought that they were right. I was like, “Well, they are right. You know, that's who I am.” And I had internalized that idea that I was somehow wrong or flawed. I think I carried that with me for a very long time, and I believe that to be what contributed, at least, to the development of my SSA. So yeah, that was the icky part. 

And then, besides that, well, my home wasn't very religious. So, you know, there was a lot of turmoil. And this is sort of the archetype we hear a lot from a lot of men with SSA. But you know, my father was emotionally distant. He was not abusive. He was a very good man, like I have nothing bad to say about him, but he was just a bit more reserved. And my mother was quite dominant. And my mother and my sister would fight a lot, and my dad would just kind of withdraw. So, I would also withdraw into myself, often through video games or just through books or whatever. Anything that was not the real world, that is where I went. And I also had questions about life, like, where did the universe come from? You know, I was asking these big questions from a very young age, and to which no adults could give me the right answer. So, yeah, that was me as a child. And I also had this longing to be a father like I always felt like my fitrah (inherent predisposition) was calling for me to care for someone else and to shield and protect and provide for in the way that I didn't feel like I was. So yeah, that felt strangely important to me from a very young age. yeah, 

Waheed: 15:08

MashaAllah, mashaAllah. And even in terms of your interests, did you have any cross-gender interests or mannerisms, like what is considered to be feminine, for example? Because you said you hung around girls more than boys, did you take on more of their interests? You weren't interested in what boys used to do, for example?

Ishaq: 15:23

I wouldn't say that I had stereotypically feminine interests, like I didn't play with dolls, I didn't have any interest in feminine clothing. But I was expressedly disinterested in stereotypically male interests. So, team sports, getting dirty, rough and tumble play, that was completely not interesting to me at all, and I wanted to distance myself from that. So I was very much more interested in things that were isolating, right? So I would read a lot, I would play a lot of video games, and then later on, spend time on the internet, a lot, a lot of time on the internet, probably in places where a child my age should not have been, right? So, yeah, that was my teenage years, basically. 

Waheed: 16:16 

And at what age did you tell your parents?

Ishaq: 16:21

It was, I would say, when I was about 18 or 19, and it was not even something I had planned to do. Well, it was something I had planned to do, but it kind of came about unexpectedly, because I was sort of blackmailed by my sister. She came across a picture that I had taken with someone I was seeing at the time. It was just like an innocent picture, but then she asked me the question: “Do you like boys?” And I said, “Well yes.” Then she said: “Well you have to tell Mom and Dad.” I did not want to, of course, it seemed like a big deal. And then she kind of threatened me and said, “Well, if you don't tell them, I'll tell them.” I was like, “Okay, well, if you're going to tell them, I'd rather do it on my terms.” So I kind of outed myself. They said, “Okay, no big deal. We love you and we accept you.”

Waheed: 17:09

That's it?

Ishaq: 17:12

Yeah, it was a non-event, honestly.

Waheed: 17:16

Anticlimactic, but yeah, yay! And so what happened after that? I'm assuming you went to college and you were experimenting?

Ishaq: 17:27

Yes, so I didn't date anyone during high school, just had crushes and whatnot. Nothing serious. But it was then in college where I had my first relationship, a long term relationship, and we were together for a good four years, I want to say, on and off. It was unstable, but, yeah, there was definitely a lot of experimenting, a lot of instability. There was infidelity and turmoil, and looking back, it was not a healthy relationship in any way you want to define it, it was not healthy. But at the time, it felt like, I mean, my whole identity was defined around this, right? So I really felt, and I believed this in my heart of hearts, that if I was not in this relationship, then there was nothing left to live for, right? And I can't stress that enough, that it really felt like it was all of who I was. My life was defined around this person, and my name was never uttered unless it was with this other person's name, right? We were like a unit. So it was something that was quite traumatizing, I would say, because when it ended, it didn't end in a pretty way. And you know, wherever he is now, I hope he's doing well. I mean, we were both young and foolish at the time, right? But it was definitely not a healthy relationship.

Waheed: 18:58

I think this is very important, what you said, that kind of your entire identity was based in that. How did that come about? Why was someone as young as you at the time completely - that was something that you found and hung on to. What was the reason that you could now, in hindsight, how would you characterize that, or what were the ongoing dynamics that brought about such a relationship to begin with?

Ishaq: 19:25

I think, I mean, I can't speak for him, but from my perspective, I think that there was this underlying idea of like, you're perfect the way you are. You were born this way, and you know you don't need to change, and let's just embrace each other and accept each other for who we are, which, on the surface sounds very nice, right? And it's a very attractive idea, right? So I get why people flock to this idea. But the thing is, with hindsight, now, I realize that real growth starts with the humility to say things like, “Well, maybe I do need to change. You know, maybe I can be more of a man. Maybe I can, you know, engage in some brotherly activities with other men, be it sports or whatnot”, right? But when you engage in a same-sex relationship, it's like you kind of abandon all of that. You say, “Well, this is just who I am, and there's nothing that needs to change about me.” It’s kind of implicit, so.

Waheed: 20:26

And you know, now, looking back at things, you probably see a lot of the negatives in that relationship. Let's try and take a balanced approach. So, such relationships, particularly, you know your first relationship, there were some things that were helping you, but also, now, in hindsight, you look back and you're like, “Well, there were also some destructive elements.” Can you tell us more about both? So you can maybe kind of help us be with you in that setting? 

Ishaq: 20:52

Of course yeah, it was probably not fair to make it seem as if it was all bad. I mean, there were definitely what seemed like the positive aspects at the time. There was a lot of comfort, and he met many of my immediate needs, that need to be held and for some semblance of stability. So there was definitely an illusion of stability, and it was a very convincing one. So it felt good. In the moments where things were good, they were good, right? We did support each other in the way that we knew how at the time as young, dumb teenagers, right? Like, that's what we did. And we met lots of interesting people. I learned a lot of life skills, we can say it like that. Like in the scene, there's a lot of clubbing and stuff. So you go meet people, and it's very important for a young person to go and meet new people. Now perhaps not in this way. I would say there's other healthier ways of doing it, but it was my way of coming out of my shell, because growing up, I was very much, very much reserved. And he took me out of my shell, which is something that I did need. I did need to stop withdrawing so much. So he did help me come out of my shell.

Waheed: 22:17

Excellent, wonderful. And what about now, when you look back, what were some dynamics that were quite unhealthy that you found in your relationship that were also common in other relationships as well?

Ishaq: 22:30

Well, there was a big aspect of jealousy, and I felt like, if he got any of that good feeling that he was giving me, if he was getting that from anyone else, even if it was to a much lesser degree, then I would fly into a rage. Like, there's this one incident that sticks in my mind, where he had just taken a selfie with someone, and just the fact that they kind of had their arms around each other, that was, to me, it was like, the end of the world. You know, it's like, “Oh, you're providing comfort for another human. Like, I'm supposed to be your person.” So that completely ruined my week, like I wasn't able to sleep. I felt sick to my stomach, and it felt like part of me was crumbling when I saw that happening. So, there was definitely a lot of jealousy there that was not fun to deal with. 

There came a point later in the relationship where the cracks were really starting to become apparent. So this feeling of wanting to be supported and helped became so loud that I was no longer really able to get it from him. So then that's when there was infidelity that started in the relationship. And it became like an addictive substance, right? Where this good feeling that you're getting from someone, oh, well, I can get it from other people too, right? And then that started another vicious cycle, where I would just constantly seek the next person to make me feel good for a little while, and it resulted in a catastrophic and quite violent end to the relationship. So that was.. I take full accountability from actions, obviously, I'm not trying to justify anything. But I was young and lost at the time, and that's the only way I knew how to comfort myself, was to do this. So that's what I did. And when the relationship ended, I just remembered feeling like, you know, I can't go on, and there's no reason to live anymore. So that would just feed into the desire to go out and see more people.

Waheed: 25:00

Yeah, subhan Allah. And so what happened after that?

Ishaq: 25:05

So, after that, there were more relationships after that, which kind of followed the same model of the first, probably to a lesser extent, because, I mean, the first one is always the most memorable one, right? But they all sort of follow that same schema. And they always started very nice and ended very badly. There were moments of instability, there's moments of infidelity, and when I look back, I say, like, “What was the point of all that?” Like, it didn't really feel like I learned much from any of those relationships. It just felt like a crutch that I was clinging to in order to not fall into a pit of despair and suicidality. Which is not what love should be, you know, like it's you should be stable, and you should have the growth and humility to be good on your own and not have to cling on to a person. But that's where I was. I had to have someone, otherwise I was nothing. 

And then at one point, well, I just fell deeper and deeper into the scene. And there sort of came a point where there was a shift. It was a very gradual shift. I want to say that there was like this one light bulb moment where it just clicked. But it wasn't really like that, right? But I would say that looking back now, what happened is that my mindset shifted from “I'll be happy once I find the right man” to “I'll be content once I become the right man”. So that's when I started questioning everything, what it meant to be good, to be loved, to live with purpose. I didn't have the answers to any of these questions, but the questions were just really getting louder in my mind. So that's when I knew that something had to change. I just didn't know what yet. Parallel to that, I was also dealing with a lot of turmoil in my family life. So my parents were in the midst of a divorce, and my dad had retired, and he was a man who was very, very committed to his work, a very strong work ethic. It was always his strength. But when he retired, it's like he lost his raison d'etre, his reason to live. And I saw my dad in a way that I had never seen him before, which was depressed, purposeless, and I feared for his life at one point really, where I thought he would take his own life. And that really shook me. That really shook me, because I always saw my dad as you know, like he was reserved, and he was quiet, but I still saw him as strong, but then I saw him now as weak. So this did shake me up quite a lot. And then also, parallel to that, I was completely lost in terms of my career and my schooling. I didn't know why I was studying what I was studying. I just felt like I was going through the motions. And I felt like, “Okay, well, I have to go to university. I had to complete a master's, because that's what people do, and if you don't, then you're no good and you're not smart.” So I felt like all of my self worth was okay, “Well, if I can't have a good healthy and stable relationship, I can at least have a fancy degree, or I could at least have something to show for all of this that I've been through.” But the fact of the matter is that I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be in university. I didn't want to be studying what I was studying. So there was a huge conflict of “What do I do? Do I stay in the current path I'm in, I’m miserable, or do I take a leap and do I just try something completely different?” And I was paralyzed for many years. Actually, I probably stayed in school for way longer than I had to, but I was very terrified of disappointing my parents, letting myself down, and letting them down.

Waheed: 29:07

Yeah, subhan Allah. I think that resonates with so many of us. We've been through similar situations that it becomes very paralyzing, and when it's coupled with other things that are going on simultaneously, it just becomes too much to handle, subhan Allah. But before we dive a bit into the internal shift that you talked about, now that you mentioned your dad, can you tell us more about your relationship with your dad growing up? You said that he was a bit aloof, he wasn't the primary figure in your household, but you mentioned that he was strong. And then at some point you felt that he was weak and you were afraid that he might do something to himself. Can you tell us more about what you remember about your relationship with him when you were growing up, you know, as a child, teenager, and young adult?

Ishaq: 29:57

Well, both of my parents were in the military, and my mom would often go away overseas and would spend many months overseas, so I guess I always saw her as the provider or the breadwinner, if you will. Although my dad was also in the military, he would stay here because of his role. So he would often spend more time with me at home, making the meals, all that stuff, and we would do activities together. I mean, he would always try to get me into, you know, mechanics, and looking at him, he would make me watch him, like, repair bikes or cars and stuff like that, and trying to get me to be interested. And I just had the lack of interest, it's something that I still guilt myself over honestly after all this time, you know, we don't really appreciate our parents for what they were trying to do for us as kids. But I see now that he was trying to bond with me, but I was simply not interested. I was not interested in the things he was interested in. So I didn't really take interest in him. He was just there. We wouldn't talk about our feelings, right? So I wanted to have someone to talk about my feelings to, and I didn't have anyone to talk about my feelings to, so that sort of contributed to our disconnect. Now that being said, I mean we didn't really fight. We got along relatively fine, but I would characterize the relationship as him trying to get me to come closer to him, and then I would just push him away. So, yeah, there's a lot of that.

Waheed: 31:54

And what about mom?  You mentioned that she was away for quite some time because of her job, but when she was there, how was the dynamic at home, particularly when it comes to you?

Ishaq: 32:04

Right, well, I felt often coddled and treated as if I were a baby, and I remember resenting her for that. I felt like I wanted to become a man. I just didn't know how, because I was constantly put in this position where I was just a defenseless child, right? And I wanted to be more than that. So when my parents would fight, they'd try to comfort me, but then I'd say, “Well, but why are you fighting? You know, like, if you really want my feelings to be the thing that are most important to you, then stop this turmoil in the home.” But there was just constant, constant turmoil. And that's not to paint either of my parents as bad people, they were just doing the best that they knew how to do. So I don't want to be misconstrued.

Waheed: 33:07

Of course. Absolutely.

Ishaq: 33:09

But it was hard. It was not easy. As a child, I felt oftentimes like I was just the one to comfort her, because since my sister was such a difficult child to deal with, she was extremely rebellious, outgoing, she would sneak out, do all sorts of crazy things, whereas I was just the one who was stuck at home, and I felt like almost forgotten, you know. Like I had all my material needs provided for, I mean, I had all these cool games, like the new gaming consoles, and all the kids would come over to my place to play them, and I'd have a tree house in my backyard, and we would do all sorts of fun things. So, on the surface, it seemed as though everything was peachy, perfect, and fine, but the emotional aspect to it was missing for me, it felt.

Waheed: 34:03

Yeah, Subhan Allah. I can imagine. And I think this also resonates with a lot of our listeners. You know, the idea that you are kind of overprotected by your mother and not allowed to express your masculinity, or, you know, to undergo that rite of passage that you weren't actually taken by the hand and shown the ways of men. You tried to connect with your father, there was that disconnect. Your mother was, on the other hand, preventing you from doing that, you know, not explicitly, but on a subconscious level. And so you're like the perfect child, you know, Mama's boy, do as I'm told, was that kind of the impression?

Ishaq: 34:45

Yeah, for sure, yeah. And in the early but like before I'd continue to college after, like before, with all that time, I was an overachiever at school. Since I spent so much time reading, and I was very diligent. You know, it seemed as though I was destined for success, right? And it makes sense to assume that. So that expectation was placed onto me. And yeah, they said, “Well, maybe he's not a sporty kid, but he'll be a great doctor someday!” So, you know, they say it encouragingly and lovingly, and I know that,  we should encourage our kids to greatness, but at the same time it's heavy for a child to hear that. It's like, “Oh, okay, well, that's the only way my parents can be happy.” That's what we believe as children. For some reason, we take that upon ourselves to be the reason that they find happiness. And when we fail to live up to that standard, it hits hard.

Waheed: 35:44

Correct. It becomes a burden on the child growing up. That “I want to please my parents, and the only way that I could do that is to meet their expectations”, which is how we perceive it, subhan Allah. 

So if we circle back to what you mentioned earlier that you said, you know, in the gay scene, people often say that I'll be happy once I find the right man. But then at some point, there was some sort of paradigm shift where you kind of adopted a different mindset, which is “I will be content once I become the right man.” Can you tell us more about this and how it came about?

Ishaq: 36:28

Sure, well, part of it had to do with the people that I had met. There were, more often than not, the people I would meet, they had some sort of mental health issue. So, be it chronic anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality, whatever you know, I've seen it all, right? And it was just interesting, like I noticed a pattern, and I didn't really know what it was or why that was. But the LGBT narrative is like “Oh well, it's because society doesn't accept us, and that's why we suffer from these mental health issues.” And I believed that for the longest time, I said “Yeah, well, you know, if only we have full acceptance, then maybe one day we'll be cured of all these mental issues and ailments.” But then, later, I realized that, wait a minute, there actually is quite a lot of acceptance, I mean, at least in the West. If you look in the non-religious sphere, which is where I was raised and where I come from, I mean there was never really much of an issue. And then later on, we're talking about, like you know, late 2000s, early 2010s it was really at the forefront in the culture. It was cool to be accepting of gay people. Let's put it that way, right? It was the mainstream, and you had the legalization of gay marriage, and then you had all these people who would change their Facebook profile pictures in support of X, Y and Z. And then I just saw, sort of like a slippery slope of it's like they were asking for more and more things. And I'm like, “Okay, well, wait a minute, what's going on here?” Like, before, it was just “We want to live our lives in peace”, and now it's become a lot of other things? Like, that's not what I signed up for. So then that was a moment where something didn't ring well to me. It seemed like something was amiss. So that's when I said, “Okay, well, what if the problem is me? What if it's us? You know, like, what if we're the ones who need to change? What if we're the ones who have the wrong mindset?” 

Waheed: 38:59 
Did you ever vocalize this to someone else?

Ishaq: 39:02

In the later stages, I went through this phase where, now don't judge me, but in the mid 2010s, when Donald Trump was going for his first presidential run, I attached myself to the MAGA movement. And then I was like, yeah, these, you know, I kind of did a whole 180. I don't know why. I don't know what it was. And I became very right wing, and I was like, you know, “This LGBT has got out of control, and we just want to be normal”, and blah, blah, blah. So that’s kind of again, because there was this  sense of purposelessness, and I wanted to feel included. I wanted a sense of community. So that's kind of where I found my community, where I felt like, okay, these people are normal and they're stable, but that's how I saw it at the time. Obviously I'm past that, but that's when I started to vocalize my issues with the LGBT community. I still labeled myself as gay at the time, I just want to be clear, but I said, “Okay, well, I'm not like the others”, right? There was a lot of like, you know, “I'm not like them”, right? So it was a way for me to try to define my masculinity. That's how I saw it. Needless to say, it failed, but it was, I would say, better than what I was at, because at least then I kind of defined this category of like, “Okay, this life of debauchery is wrong, but maybe I could live a righteous life and be a good man and still call myself gay.” So that was kind of like an awkward teenage transition phase that I was in, and I was just very political at the time as well. 

Waheed: 41:01

Yeah, yeah. But just for us to understand, so were you brought up in a religious household? Or were you religious at the time? 

Ishaq: 41:10

No, not at all. I was not brought up in a religious household. One of my best childhood friends was Catholic, but I was always quite anti-religion actually. I would spend all my time, like, reading on the internet, you know, those cringey atheist sites like "99 reasons why God doesn't exist!" and I would, like, memorize them all. And then I would go to people who call themselves religious, and then I would try to convince them to not believe in God.

Waheed: 41:37
I see.

Ishaq: 41:40

That was me. Okay. I was like the stereotypical cringy atheist, but, yeah, no. And then once I transitioned to my more political phase, where I was trying to distance myself from the LGBT community, well that's when I was attracted to the idea of - and I use this term very loosely - “Judeochristian values”, in the way that these right wing grifters use it. Not because they really believe those values, but just because they want to cling to some sort of nationalist identity. So that's what I clinged to, and I was also quite critical of Islam as well because “Oh, well, you know, they treat gay people in such and such a way, and, you know, it's an anti-West”, and bla bla bla, you know all those talking points that we've all heard a million times at this point, that was me. And I really thought that that was going to be me, that was my future. Think Milo Yiannopoulos, I don't know if you know this person.

Waheed: 42:48
Of course.

Ishaq: 42:49
Yeah, so that's like the type of person who I would idolize at that point in my life.

Waheed: 42:56

So, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm trying to, like, understand kind of the progression of events, or like, what is going on in your mind, like your state of mind as you're navigating all these different phases. So you weren't religious. You were, as you said, anti-religion. And so, to me, when I'm listening to you, I would think - and correct me if I'm wrong - I would think of a young man who was trying to find his own community, a sense of belonging, and because of his orientation, and, you know, the culture and society, he kind of obviously gravitated towards his “community”, which is the LGBT community. And you know, he was embraced there, and he was loved, and he had those relationships. But, deep down, you felt a sense of emptiness, and then you're very dissatisfied with how things were going, the different kinds of, you know, as you said, debauchery, the infidelity, the abandonment, mental health issues, everything was just kind of, it was like a mask fell off, and you're like, “Whoa, what am I dealing with right now?” So you kind of went to another extreme, to the opposite extreme of, like, kind of right wing, anti… Well, I wouldn't say anti-gay, but rather, you know what I mean, like you just kind of went to the opposite side of the spectrum, but you still identified as gay, and you're trying to find your way. So, to me, it sounds like someone who is trying to find his place, his kind of sense of belonging and connection, but you weren't able to find that. And so the kind of sense of emptiness was still lingering. Correct?

Ishaq: 44:33

You're entirely correct, I couldn't have said it better myself. It was like just floating in the ocean and trying to grab at whatever I could grab at, and whatever was closest. And at the time, so many people would question, “Well, how can you ally yourself with these right wingers?” To me, it just made sense at the time, because they were the only examples of people that seemed to be the most like me. So, of course, I would gravitate towards that, because I was a young man who was still trying to find himself, because I was so disillusioned with the LGBT community, so that was another couple of years of craziness. But like you said, on the complete opposite side of the spectrum.

Waheed: 45:21

Did you meet other people on that side of the spectrum as well who identified as gay or trans or what have you, who kind of also shared your political stance on the matter?

Ishaq: 45:32

There were not many people in my real life, although online, I did have a small community of people, and I would consume a lot of content too, from the Blaire Whites and Milo Yiannopoulos as I mentioned as well. And that was very much the zeitgeist at the time, like the anti SJW sort of narrative, and that was what I had married myself to. So, no, in real life, I would say I was alienating myself, and I was pushing a lot of people away, because it was not popular in my circle of immediate friends, and not in University either. So, to me, it was something that did give me some semblance of stability, but it also was quite self destructive, because I created a lot of enemies, and, unfortunately, I pushed a lot of people away at the time. 

Waheed: 46:30 
And just like we mentioned, there were a lot of ills within the LGBT community that made you very dissatisfied with them. What are the things that you also found on the opposite side of the political spectrum that made you like, “Oh my God, whoa! This is just too much!”

Ishaq: 46:47

There was a lot of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty. At one point, it's no longer impressive to watch someone “own” with facts and logic, when it's just like someone talking very fast, and like a college student who's not an expert on the topic, and you're just talking over them, like it seems impressive to use a lot of big words, and then once you grow up, you realize actually the content of what they're saying is actually not that deep, and it's not very true either. And when you look at their behaviors, they do the opposite of what they say. So, once I saw a lot of my idols at the time, then they fell, you know, just think of Jordan Peterson or whatever, like all these types. It's like, when you look at their behaviors, you realize that they don't practice what they preach. And that bothered me a lot. I truly wanted someone I could emulate, and I was not finding it anywhere. So that was quite frustrating.

Waheed: 47:53

Yeah, pfft.. 100%. When the masks fall, it's a shitshow. Absolutely. You were basically also kind of, at that time, you mentioned that you felt that there was the guidance of Allah kind of lighting up your way, showing you in a way, in a very nuanced manner. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Ishaq: 48:14

Right. So there came a point where, again, I was still in my right wing phase, and I had met a Muslim who I wanted to be with, and we started dating, actually. And at the time, I had no interest in Islam. In fact, I was quite markedly like anti-Islam at the time. But again, I was just motivated by very superficial reasons. I said, “Oh, this person, I'm attracted to him”, and that was the extent of my thought process at the time. I didn't see it as anything deeper than that. So, once we spent more time together, I realized that he was very wise, and he would often give me advice on the troubles that I was going through, and he would tell me about God. He made me discover God in a way that I never thought about him before, like I always had this Christian/Catholic conception of God. Since it made no sense to me, the concept of Trinity is like that's all God was, so I just rejected that wholesale. And the only image of Islam that I had was what I heard in the media, which is, of course, extremely negative, so of course I'm not going to like it, right? Because how do you expect someone to - if you don't actually take the time and read the Quran and know about it yourself, you're just going to come out with this extremely negative image, right? 

I had never met any Muslims. So he was like my first real interaction with a Muslim, where I was actually getting to know him, what his behavior was like, his serenity, his wisdom, and yes, you know, he went through his own, he's going through his own trials. And I'm not here to tell his story, but he definitely was way, way more advanced in terms of contentment and stability than I was, let's just put it that way. So I thought that to be very interesting, and I was curious, I was like, “Where does he get that strength from?” Like he went through all this struggle, and he still seems to have a head on his shoulders, and he doesn't seem to be affected with these tons of mental health issues. So I thought there was something interesting to that. And eventually, he was very gentle with it, he didn't ever try to convert me forcefully or anything like that, but he just said, “Well, you know, having faith in God is something that gives people a lot of stability”, and I felt that to be interesting. So I was very reticent at first, but I did eventually start to read the Quran slowly, and it was at a time, too, where I was going through career uncertainty, and it helped me. It gave me strength. I would be so nervous to go into work, because I should say that this was the time, it was right after I had dropped out of university, and I was looking to go into a trade through just random recommendation from a friend. She said, “Oh, you should try to become a service technician.” And I did not see myself in a million years ever doing blue collar work, right? Because, again, I hated getting my hands dirty. I don't like anything rough and tumble. I don't like when people are cursing. I don't like people talking about, like, crude subjects. So this, to me, this was just like all the things, stereotypical, blue collar, I just associated it with like a lower class of people. So I could never do that. But then when I talked, and not even just read the Quran, but whenever I talked about Islam or thought about God, I was just instilled with this calmness, and it's very hard to explain, because I had never felt that at any point in my life. It felt like, “Oh! It felt like I was being embraced, and I can do this, maybe I can do this.” And lo and behold,  not only did I pursue my career as a blue collar worker, but I thrived in it, and I became very good at what I do, and that was all thanks to Allah. So that realization, obviously, I'm fast forwarding a lot of bits, but the realization was very slow, but it did eventually materialize into me taking my Shahada.

Waheed: 53:01

The second theme you want to talk about is taking the Shahada. What are the different factors that kind of culminated in that, and can you tell us about the verse that you chose for this phase?

Ishaq: 53:12

Yes, so the verse I chose for this phase is Surah 41, Ayah 46 and it's: "Whoever does righteousness, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against it. And your Lord is not ever unjust to the servants."

Waheed: 53:28

Amen. When you and I were talking and you were introducing me to your story, you were telling me that there were a couple of major life stressors that were happening at the time, you know, before you kind of gradually turned to Islam, and you were kind of studying the deen, becoming more serious about maybe examining what Islam is about. Can you walk us through what had happened at the time?

Ishaq: 53:47

Sure, yeah. So there's a convergence of a lot of major life stressors at that point in my life. There was the death of my father, there was the career uncertainty that I sort of touched on earlier. And there was also that identity crisis, like, “Am I part of the LGBT, or am I a right winger, like, what am I? Who do I want to become?” These were questions that were gnawing at me. And there was also the fact that I was in another dysfunctional relationship. Now, the person I was with was very kind, actually, he was a Muslim, but there was still so much instability and dysfunction, but this time, it felt different. It felt like it was more coming from me. It felt like it just left me with that same feeling of dissatisfaction, and left me feeling empty as well.

Waheed: 54:43

So, is this the same guy who introduced you to, like the first Muslim guy you've ever met, and he was the one that you mentioned earlier?

Ishaq: 54:49

Correct. Yes. I guess I can start with talking about him. So, to me, when I met him, I had this feeling of like, “Oh, this is the man I always wanted.” You know, he ticked all the boxes for me, but there was still something that troubled me, and I couldn't put my finger on it. It felt like there was still something wrong. “And why am I still unhappy? Why am I still unsatisfied? Why do I still feel empty?” And the only comfort that I felt was when he was talking about Islam, when he shared his faith with me, that is what I wanted to nurture. I didn't want to nurture the other side of the relationship, the dysfunctional side. So, we would talk for hours and hours about his faith, and I would just sit there and listen to him, and then I would share my troubles and the stress I was going through, and I would cry. And then he would tell me about how God is there. And then it would just comfort me deeply. And, yeah, I wanted more of that. I had the taste, but I wanted more of that fulfillment. 

Waheed: 55:58

So if I were to ask you, I know this episode is about you, it's not about him, but you know, one question that may come up is, how was he, you know, as a religious man, how was he able to kind of reconcile the fact that he was in a same-sex relationship, but also he was a devout Muslim? I'm sure you've asked him this question, how was he able to navigate that?

Ishaq: 56:20

Yeah, so, at the time, I really didn't understand how someone could be practicing, religious, and also in a same-sex relationship, that just seemed like a total contradiction to me. And I made that very clear and known to him through my frustration and complaints. But, I think looking back, I was projecting a lot, and the truth is, I knew very little about his faith at the time, so I didn't realize the depth of the emotional conflict that he was navigating. And, yeah, I would constantly push him to be more out, giving him ultimatums, like, “Either you tell your family about us or it's over.” Because, like, in my mind, that's what being in a healthy, committed relationship was. Like, you know, “Why am I a secret?” But for him, it wasn't that simple. He was clear from the beginning that what we were doing was haram, and he would say it openly, and it would hurt me, but we would still fall back into sin despite that. He was visibly torn about it, though, and he'd cry. I'd try to comfort him, but honestly, I just didn't have the tools to offer him. So even when I did try to support him, I didn't fully grasp what he was going through on a spiritual level. 

And, later, it was in those periods when we were apart that when we weren't trying to force the romantic side of our relationship to work, that was when our conversations about Islam became more open and honest. And those moments actually brought us closer together, but in a different way, in a spiritual way, as opposed to a romantic way. And, eventually, I came to accept that same-sex activity is wrong, but it came through a lot of reflection, and part of that reflection was seeing how much his faith meant to him, even when he was struggling. When I was the one who finally said “Okay, like we need to put a stop to this”, I think it brought him some closure too, it felt like we both came to a place of surrender, just each in our own way.

Waheed: 58:27

But at the time you weren't… You hadn't taken the Shahada yet?

Ishaq: 58:32

Right, so the Shahada took place, I would say, about halfway through our relationship. We were together for a little under three years. And, you know, even after I gave the Shahada, I felt like, paradoxically, we were drifting apart, but getting closer at the same time. Like, as boyfriends, we were drifting apart, I felt less attracted to him, and I felt like I would lose patience with him more often, and I found myself to be like the worst version of myself with him, and that that really bothered me, because I was trying to become a better version of myself, and yet I always found myself mistreating him and being impatient with him. Although he was, you know, he had always been nothing but kind to me. And, you know, sure, he's not perfect, but I felt like I still had to be grateful and content, because I was with the “man of my dreams”, right? But I was still unsatisfied, and “Why is that?” And that was a question that was turning around in my head a lot. Until one point where I had a dream, it was a dream that I believe to be from Allah, because of how vivid it was. And, in this dream, I was sharing a bed with him, and he called out to me, and I pushed him back, and when I pushed him back, I fell. I fell back, and then I was falling and falling until I fell in the ocean. And then the ocean was very stormy and dark, and I was trying not to drown, just thrashing. And I felt an immense amount of despair and hopelessness, as if to say, like, “Who's going to save me?” And then I woke up suddenly, and I felt completely at peace, as if Allah Himself was there to say, “I'll be there for you”, as if He was answering me directly, saying, like, “I'll be there for you. I'll be the One you can hold on to. So hold on to Me.” And in that moment, I knew it, I was like, “Of course, of course, why didn't I think of that!” So that’s, I would say, the impetus for what, like, eventually led to the demise of our romantic relationship.

Waheed: 1:00:44

Oh, mashaAllah, subhan Allah! That is very, very, moving, thank you for sharing that. But with regards to you and your boyfriend at the time, you were still in contact, obviously, right? You were still having your conversations about Islam and spirituality, right?

Ishaq: 1:01:00

Yeah, so, listen, it was not a clean break. You know, there was an on-and-off period. So there did come a time where I would try to rationalize the behaviors and say, “Maybe Islam is true, like 99%, but maybe this one part, I just need to reinterpret it in my own way”, you know. So, again, I was going through this awkward phase of not fully submitted, it makes a lot of sense, but there's still this one sticking point that is going to take a bit longer for me to submit to. So, yeah, but I was still studying the deen, you know, I was starting to pray, and I was seeing the benefits of that, but there was still a little bit of lingering dysfunction that was sticking around.

Waheed: 1:01:53

Understood. Yeah. So, my question is, now that you've introduced us to that phase of your life, as someone who used to be anti-religion and you fluctuated a lot on the political spectrum, what attracted you to islam, particularly after being fed, you know, the kind of the propaganda or like the media version of Islam that “Those people are out to get you, and they're going to blow up the world, and all sorts of stuff, and they want to kill gay people and throw them off the rooftops of buildings” and God knows what. What attracted you to Islam? How did you find yourself, you know, reading the Quran, studying the deen, being interested in something that probably you wouldn't have even entertained?

Ishaq: 1:02:35

It was the witnessing of miracles. I witnessed the impossible. I knew in my heart of hearts that it was impossible for me to be a strong person. I HAD to be with a strong man. And you have to understand how I cannot emphasize that enough, right? I was just this weak, meek, useless, little person who was also a disgusting pervert and who was all these negative things. This is what I had fed myself for years and years and years. So, when I started my new job, and I found stability through calling out to Allah, and I said, “Listen, if You're really real, You have to give me strength, because that is impossible. I'm not strong. So, please, just any amount of strength You can give me, give it to me, and that will be enough to convince me that You're true, that You're real.” And Subhan Allah. And then, like I said, I excelled in my field. So that was a major miracle for me. It seemed like it was completely impossible, and then it had become possible.

Waheed: 1:03:44

I would say, like, your relationship with Allah, you were kind of discovering it at the same time while witnessing divine openings in terms of, you were asking for strength and you were getting it at the same time. And that kind of reinforced that connection with Islam, correct?

Ishaq: 1:03:58

Correct, yeah.

Waheed: 1:03:59

Subhan Allah. What were some aspects of Islam that kind of were too precious for you? Because this is something that I like to ask reverts, particularly, like what is one aspect of Islam that spoke so deeply to you, that is very dear to your heart, when you were still studying the deen and you were exposed to it for the first time?

Ishaq: 1:04:15

Subhan Allah, what a question! The concept of just praying regularly at prescribed times. Like I had grown up with discipline, right? I was in a military family, so I knew what it meant to, you know, wake up on time, and I knew the importance of structure, and making your bed, and cleaning your room, and all of these things. And I had already sort of tasted the benefits of that structure and rigidity. I don't like the word rigidity, it almost has a negative connotation, but I liked that. So, the fact that Islam is like a guide for life, right? It's not just a book with nice things written in it. It's much, much more than that, right? It's a guide for every single aspect of your life. And the most central pillar of it is, of course, Salah (prayer). So when I discovered Salah, and when I started to pray, it's like the signs just were instant, they were instantaneous, and I felt that connection and that peace. And it was addictive, but in a good way, like I wanted more of that. And the fact that I get to do this five times a day, like this is amazing! Of course, I want to do it more! So, yeah, prayer and just putting your head on the ground and humbling yourself with structure is amazing. 

Waheed: 1:05:56

Subhan Allah. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. Yeah, so you were kind of starting to see a lot of tangible benefits on your heart, on your mind, on your soul. You found some sort of strength from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, that you were like, “This is not from me”, you know. Through that submission and kind of finding that humility and surrender through that. So talk to us about what happened next.

Ishaq: 1:06:22

So there was an aftermath of me embracing Islam, like my friend group. Well, I had a few distinct friend groups. I had one girl who identified as a lesbian, and she did not take it well at all. She essentially said that I hated myself and didn't really want to hear me out when I tried to explain to her what was going on. And yeah, that hurt me pretty bad, honestly. But the other friends, I'd say… So I had, like, the friends who are more about the clubbing and the raving scene, and then I had other friends who were more right-leaning.  And their reactions were essentially like, “Okay, we don't care about you anymore.” They didn't say that. But I could sell a lot from the non-verbal, like the way they looked at me, in the way they never, ever messaged me again. And when I did try to reach out to them, it was always.. It was just not the same. I noticed that, like, it was never about how I felt, you know, like they never once asked me, like, “Okay, but are you good with this? Are you happy? Are you at peace?” No, they didn't really care about any of that. They didn't ask me once if I was in a good place, although I did try to convey that to them. And in the case of my lesbian friend, she was just essentially gaslighting me and saying, “No, no, it's because you hate yourself.” When I was like, “No, actually. I've never been more at peace and well adjusted and feeling whole and now you're telling me I hate myself? Like what is this?”

Waheed: 1:07:57

So a lot of assumptions basically.

Ishaq: 1:07:58
Yeah, yeah…

Waheed: 1:08:00

Do you want to tell us about the moment you took your Shahada or you'd rather not?

Ishaq: 1:08:05

Yeah! It was my partner at the time who took me to the mosque. And he said, like, “Listen, you have to stop delaying it, like, I know you're ready, you've been praying five times a day now”, like, I started just, you know, like, once a day, and then worked up to twice, three times eventually, but I was, like, praying five times a day for a couple months at this point. And I had tried Ramadan, I did it like halfway through, and I was slow, you know, just like dipping my toes in the water, and I was getting more and more comfortable with various aspects of the deen. And so I was like, “I can't give Shahada, because I'm still in this relationship, and I still don't know how to reconcile my SSA.” So that was a big sticking point for me that was preventing me from taking Shahada sooner, because I didn't know how to stop my attraction, right? And I thought that I had to be cured of this before becoming Muslim. And he said, “No, you don't have to, you don't know if you're gonna be alive tomorrow. Like you must do it as soon as you can.” And he really emphasized that point. I said, “Okay, like you're right, let's do it.” 

So we drove to the masjid, and he initially wanted me to do it in front of everyone, and I was like, “No, there's no way!” Like I am in an emotionally fragile state, and I'm gonna burst into tears and cry like a little baby, so there's absolutely no way I'm doing it in front of everyone. So, I just did it in the Imam's office, and there were just three of us, and, like, I was hardly even able to finish uttering the words, and the tears were just flowing and flowing. And we all shared a hug, and it was very nice.And it felt like being born again. It felt like I was wrapped in light, and it felt right. Nothing felt more right than that moment in my life.

Waheed: 1:10:05

Subhan Allah. Well, congratulations. I'm very happy to hear about that. Alhamdulillah. Yeah, so and you were still in that relationship with your Muslim friend at the time?

Ishaq: 1:10:20

Right, right, yeah. I tried for a couple of months to find some sort of way I could justify it. And there's one friend - so I mentioned that I had, like, lost a lot of friends. Now there was this one friend who actually did stick by my side, and we weren't super close, but he was always, you know, he would ask questions like, “But what about your attractions? Like, how does that work?” And then when I would ever, I would try to explain it to him, I noticed that I would just fumble over my words. I would do all sorts of mental gymnastics to say, “Well, it's not actually haram, and blah, blah, blah.” And he just looked at me and he's like, “Alright, man, whatever.” Like, akh! Deep down, I was like “He's right, like what am I saying? I can't.. This is wrong.” And I don't like this dishonesty that I'm forcing myself to try to justify. It wasn't truthful, and it wasn't sustainable. So I knew something had to change, but I had no idea how to go about it. 

So what happened eventually is that I received an email from my work offering an opportunity to transfer. So, it was staying in the same company, but moving to the other side of the province, so about 500 kilometers away. And I just felt the same feeling of when I was giving Shahada like “This feels right.” You know that gut feeling of “This feels right.” Well, I got that same feeling when I saw that email saying, “You can transfer.” I was like, “I have to do this. I don't know what it is, but I have to do this.” And within an hour, I applied. And then I told my partner at the time, and I said, “Listen, like I have to do this.” And it just so happened that also my mom lives in the town that I would be transferring to, so I would also be living close to her, because she lives alone. And I was like, “Well, how can my mom live alone? She's getting older, so somebody needs to take care of her.” So it was kind of like a two-in-one situation. And you know what he told me? He said, “Do it, yeah. This is Allah calling you to make hijrah (migration). You have to do this. It's right.” And I said “Thank you!! Thank you for understanding, like..”

Waheed: 1:12:40 

Subhan Allah!

Ishaq: 1:12:41

He said this with pain in his voice, because, you know, obviously there's emotions mixed in there. And part of him I know didn't want me to leave. When I did leave, it was upsetting. I felt like I was leaving the little bit of anchor that I had in my life. I was like, okay, but if I really believe that Allah is all I need, like I need to do this, like I need to just take the leap of faith, leave behind this lifestyle, and start a new chapter. So that's what I did. 

Waheed: 1:13:12

Subhan Allah! Can we just take a second to appreciate this guy, mashaAllah? We appreciate you, but we also kind of want to send him lots of love if he's listening to us, you know, may Allah bless you bro. I hope.. We hope you're in a much better place, inshaAllah, may Allah reward you immensely. He sounds like a wonderful person. Alhamdulillah.

Ishaq: 1:13:31

He is, he is, yes. Yeah, I just feel the need to say, like, you mentioned how some people would ask, like, “How can he consider himself like a devout Muslim?” I'm just so fiercely defensive of him, like he is, you know, he taught me how to pray, he taught me how to fast, he taught me all the good things of the deen. Of course, it's all because of Allah, but Allah used him as a means to guide me. So really, really, he's a great person.

Waheed: 1:14:01

MashAllah. Bless you, bro. What happened after that? So you relocated and you were living close to your mom?

Ishaq: 1:14:07

Yes, so right before I transferred. So the transfer was going to take place in about two weeks. It was a very short notice. And I talked to my boss about it, I said, like, “Listen, I applied for this transfer.” And you know what he told me? He's like, “No dude, don't do it. Because if you go there, there's the union there, they're going to go on strike. And it's not going well. So you know, I really highly discourage you from taking this transfer.” And I made up a lie, I said, “Oh, my mom is very, very sick and she's dying.” Which is not true, LOL, but how do I explain it to them? I’m like “Oh I'm making hijrah and I'm doing it for Allah.” Like no, these people don't even know I'm Muslim. I'm like, okay, yeah, so I made that up. I made up that story, and I said, “I have to go be near her, with her”, which is true I do, I suppose, since as Muslims, we do have to take care of our parents, so I don't regret it for that reason, either. But when I arrived, I worked for two weeks, and then we went on strike for a full year. So I was unemployed, and obviously incurred a loss of wealth, which, again, is what Allah promises. He says, if you think it's enough, if you say that you believe, it's not enough. You have to go through loss and sacrifice in order to be tested in your iman (faith). And that is what Allah did. And I... It just felt right. Even when I was on the street in the -40 with a picket sign in my hand, I was like, “You know what? This is where God wants me. This is where Allah wants me to be. And I feel good.” Alhamdullilah. The atmosphere was so negative, I just want to say, I cannot stress this enough. Everyone was complaining, rightfully so. I mean, it sucks to be on strike for a full year, but I was just happy to be there. I was like, “This is where I gotta be. This is where I have to be.”

Waheed: 1:15:55

SunhanAllah. Man, I'm really amazed by your story. May Allah bless you and increase you… It's, you know, the perseverance and the love for Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, this kind of enthusiasm and this energy, I just LOVE IT! Subhan Allah. Bless you bro. Okay, so what happened after that?

Ishaq: 1:16:17

Right. So, once I moved, that is when I really told myself “Okay, listen, Ishaq, you can't keep justifying acting out. You have to work towards not doing this sin anymore. How? That's not your problem. Don't worry about how, but make it your intention, and let Allah deal with the how.” Okay, so that's the thing, right? We talk about desire as wanting something, right? So the mountain that you have to climb is to want something, but you can WANT to want something. Although I didn't want OSA, I wanted to want it, if that makes any sense? So, I took an approach, it’s my coach who gave me a really good piece of advice. He says, “If you ever have a goal, you have to be surgical with it. Be surgical. Don't look at it as one big thing, cut it up into little, tiny pieces, and tackle each thing surgically.” So that is what I tried to do. I said, okay, listen, first things first, I have to make Muslim friends. I have to be friends with brothers who are a good influence on me. That will help me develop healthy, halal relationships with brothers. So that is what I did. I started going to the masjid more, I signed up for mixed martial arts. I would do wrestling. I did Muay Thai with the masjid, they organized it. Shout out to OMA Eagles by the way. It was great. I loved that so much. And that was very therapeutic for me. Just the idea of, like, fighting it out with other bros in an Islamic context, too, and yeah, that felt, it was a huge comfort for me.

Waheed: 1:18:12

Absolutely. It's very healing as well, subhan Allah.

Ishaq: 1:18:17

For sure. For sure. And I also kept in mind, I said, okay, I also need to find a brotherhood of people who get me, so I need to reach out and find a community. And that is when the brother we were mentioning earlier in the previous section, well, he was the one who recommended that I listen to your podcast. So that is what I did. And he also recommended the Straight Struggle server, which I joined, and through that I met people, many wonderful brothers all across the world, and quite a few in my hometown, actually, that I've reached out to. And just in those moments where I need to be a little bit more emotional, and I need to kind of vent, that's the value in that. Now, I will say that, like, you know, you need to balance that out, like you can't just be in venting emotional mode all the time. So that's one tool in my toolbox that I have, but I've tried to diversify my tools. I started talk therapy as well, talking through the roots of my pain. Discipline through my job, applying myself more, going to the gym, often six times a week, focusing on my physical strength, which helps me build my mental strength as well. All of that combined has made me progress a lot as a Muslim man.

Waheed: 1:19:58

For this third theme, you chose not a verse of the Quran, but you chose a quote. I think this is kind of like your tagline on Discord, and it says "No more running". I actually like that, I wanted to ask you about that. So can you tell us more about those three words, what do they mean to you?

Ishaq: 1:20:14

Right, actually, it's from a video game called Celeste. Actually, it's amazing. I love it. It's my favorite video game of all time. And you play as a young protagonist who endeavors to climb a mountain, essentially. And the mountain symbolizes inner struggles, but along the way, you're confronted by like a shadow clone of yourself, and this shadow clone holds all the self doubt, fear, and shame, and constantly tries to sabotage your climb and drag you down. At first, you try to fight against it or escape it, but eventually you come to the realization that, to climb the mountain, you have to stop running from that part of yourself. And so the hero faces their clone, they share like this moment together, and they join forces, and then they can jump higher than before. And it's all very poignant, touching, and cute, but anyway, the line “No more running” comes at the climax of the story. And it really hit me, because for a long time, that was me, like I was the one running. I was running from Allah. I was running from the truth. I was running from Islam. I was running from who I really was deep down. And all those painful, shameful parts of my story were causing me to run towards sin as a coping mechanism. But eventually, I realized that avoiding all of that wasn't serving me. It was just making the climb a lot harder than it had to be. So now, for me, “No more running” means facing what's real, and turning back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and taking it just one step at a time, even when it's a steep uphill climb. So basically, yeah, that line reminds me like I have a mountain to climb. It's steep, it's not easy, and I might fall repeatedly and get back up multiple times, but it won't climb itself. And yeah, but the thing is, I don't have to do it alone, and Allah is with me, and He always has been. So, if I stop running for myself and start walking towards Him, He'll help me reach the summit one day, inshaAllah.

Waheed: 1:22:11

Amazing.I didn't actually know it was that deep.But I'm really inspired, mashaAllah. And what's also nice about it is that you know part of the process is not running away from your shadow, or the things that you're ashamed of, or that kind of alter persona that's trying to shame you and pull you down, but rather accepting that and incorporating that and finding healing with that, because that'll make you stronger.

Ishaq: 1:22:33

Exactly.

Waheed: 1:22:34

That’s absolutely beautiful. Cool, so where are you now, and where do you hope to be?

Ishaq: 1:22:40

Well, for now, my intention is always to get married. I want to be a father, still, since a young child, I have wanted to be a father and I still do. And I want to be strong, not just physically, but mentally as well. I've come a long way, but I'm not satisfied with where I am. I want to keep pushing myself and be the best version of myself that I can and constantly surpass the version of me, of yesterday, of last week, you know. And I know that with that comes ups and downs, but the thing is, though, I no longer see it as a vicious cycle, right? It's like a virtuous cycle. You stumble, you immediately run to repent to Allah, and then you strive to do better the next time, and with that, you become a tiny bit stronger each time. So that is where I'm at right now. Therapy has really helped. Like I said, when discussing the roots of my pain, now that I can put words to it, it's no longer like this big scary thing, like I see it for what it is now, and it's kind of like an unwanted roommate, like, he's there, there's this voice, he sometimes talks, but I've learned to make peace with it, and I can tune out and turn down the volume, and then turn up the volume of something more positive, for example, the remembrance of Allah, or the comforting words of a supportive brother, or, you know, applying myself more to my work. So all of these things help me to move away from that lifestyle that I was moving away from.

Waheed: 1:24:21

Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah. I always like to ask my guests about, you know, the different strategies and the different things that they kind of use or benefit from in their healing and recovery journey, and what they've learned. Because it's different between different people. What works for you may work for me or not, and what works for me may or may not work for you, you know. So it seems like therapy has been helping, alhamdulillah, being part of a support system, being part of a group of brothers where you're challenged, like physically, mentally, what else has also been helping you so far in your journey?

Ishaq: 1:25:00

Islam obviously puts an emphasis on prevention, which I think is amazing, right? We need to try to prevent crises before they happen. That being said, there will be times where Shaytan, since he's so sneaky, will try to slip by your defenses, right? Like he's like it says, he'll try to approach you from the right, he'll try to approach you from the left, from below, from all sorts of angles, right? So you put up all these defenses, right? But you need to know what to do in case he gets closer. So what I've learned, and I think what I haven't heard many guests talking about is the idea of being able to sweat something out. When you are in that crisis situation where you feel like, okay, “I might do something that I'll regret. I need to sit with that. I need to ride the wave.” And it's like exercising at the gym. Like, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And it does pass eventually, like, this feeling of like, “Oh, I have to go out and do this.” The reality is, no, you don't have to go and act on your desires. You can control yourself. You have to want to want to. It will be hard, and it'll feel sometimes like you're just gonna explode. I have a scene from this movie that comes to mind, I don't know if you've seen “Trainspotting”. Don't watch this movie, it's terrible. I mean like terrible in a traumatic sense. There's this scene where there's this heroin addict, and he's trying to stop, and his parents make him cut off cold turkey. So they just, like, lock him in this room. And then there's a scene where he, like, goes through these intense symptoms of withdrawal, and it's very like, fever dreamy. I'm not trying to scare people, but you know, like it obviously it's not the same thing. I'm not comparing sexual addiction to, I'm not saying they're the same, but the parallels of like withdrawal are there, right? So, when you experience those symptoms, you have to educate yourself on what it's going to be like, right? It's going to feel like torture. It will feel like torture, and denying that and hiding and trying to obfuscate that fact does not serve you. It serves you to look at it in the eyes and say, “OK, this is what I'm faced with, this is the trial that Allah has given me. I HAVE to overcome it. So whatever means necessary, I have to overcome this.” And just putting that intention firmly in front of you in your mind, and anchoring yourself to Allah, anchoring yourself to that intention, and you will get through it, inshaAllah.

Waheed: 1:28:14

MashAllah, that's excellent. So what has helped you personally? Because you've basically mentioned the why, but the how. So, what are the strategies that you employ? This is something that I also like to learn from people, so we talk a lot about strategies, for example, from the podcast, from Straight Struggle, from the seminars that we hold on the server. For you personally, as Ishaq, what are things that you know in that moment you have found to be very helpful to you to overcome something, to overcome that moment of trigger?

Ishaq: 1:28:20

Obviously, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention fasting, reading more Quran, spending more time at the masjid, like all these acts of worship, nothing will top those. But in terms of other strategies, I mentioned therapy, reaching out to brothers who get you through Straight Struggle and other resources, and also reaching out to brothers who don't get you. Like, for example, in my trade, at first, I really didn't like my colleagues, if I'm being perfectly honest, I didn't like them in the beginning because they weren't like me at all right, and they're very like rough around the edges, confrontational, often engaged in haram topics, just the complete antithesis to like what I am. But, with time, I've learned to see this as a blessing, because it helps me establish myself and define my masculinity and show myself as a strong yet gentle Muslim, and doing that, sticking by my values, and saying, “No, I'm not going to engage in this discussion of X, Y and Z, like haram topics with you”, or saying, you know, like, “Okay, I know we're in the middle of doing something, but now I have to go pray.” Just little moments like that helps me define myself as a man, and in turn, I feel like that has decreased my SSA, because I realize that actually I can be the man that I always wanted to be with. I can be him rather than be with him, right? But I had to work at becoming him. And it's work that I am doing every single day, so. But, yeah, it's possible, so that's definitely helped. 

And there's also a Muslim plumber that I'm apprenticing under, who is a brother from Djibouti, who I met very randomly, and he has been a huge blessing in my life. I'll say, you know, he's very direct, and he tells me how things are without any filter. He tells me to toughen up when I am being too soft, and it did cause friction in the beginning, but I'm very grateful. I say, alhamdulillah for having met him, because it has been therapeutic for sure, working with him. And yeah, I don't want to go off too much on a tangent about trades, but I really do think that more guys need to pick up trades, especially if you have SSA. I think that we don't see ourselves doing these kinds of jobs, but there's something very soul-filling about doing something with your hands, and like approaching a task, a job that seems like so hard and so dirty and so difficult, and like “How? I don't have the skills to do that!” and then doing it anyway, it fills you with a sense of, I don't want to say pride, but like for me, like gratefulness, I'm saying like “Alhamdulillah I was able to do that.” So it reminds me of Allah and all those moments where I thought I was not capable of doing something, and I succeed in doing it, and I can work on my craft and become better and better. So that's a way that I am practicing gratitude and also decreasing my SSA. So yeah, I'm gonna say all those things have been very therapeutic for me.

Waheed: 1:31:38

MashAllah, MashAllah! That's excellent! So basically, just to kind of summarize, the things that helped you the most: Spirituality, connection to Allah, as well as, you know, therapy, that sense of connection, community, you know, with others, people who get you, people who don't get you, and then kind of standing up for yourself and setting boundaries, and, you know, being courageous in that, even though, at the beginning it might be difficult, but, you know, you get the hang of it. You stand up for yourself, and it kind of also helps you with, kind of your masculine sense of self, correct?

Ishaq: 1:32:10
Right, yeah, you're entirely correct.

Waheed: 1:32:13

Wonderful. When it comes to discipline, because it's one of the themes that's talked about a lot when it comes to healing and recovery and overcoming, you know, impulsive habits. For you personally, what have you found that has helped you in terms of cultivating discipline in addition to everything you've mentioned?

Ishaq: 1:32:29

It's simply reminding myself that it doesn't matter how you feel, you still have to do it. And that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow, because they want their feelings to be validated, which makes sense, right? And there's a time and there's a place for discussing your feelings, but there comes a time as a man where you acknowledge your feelings, you don't suppress them, you don't deny them, but you say, “Okay, this is how I feel. Now we're gonna put that aside and we're gonna do what needs to be done.” And just really centering myself on that philosophy has really helped me in overcoming my impulsive behaviors. So, you know, like just for example, making a routine of going to the gym regularly helps, right? It's not just the physical aspect of it. The working out aspect of it. It's getting up and saying, “I really don't want to do this today, but I'm going to do it anyway, because it has to be done.” And that, in my opinion, is more conducive to developing strength, because it develops your mental strength. And through mental strength, you can build your physical strength as well.

Waheed: 1:33:35

Amen, Well said. So, what you're saying is that you don't necessarily rely on motivation, because motivation comes and goes. Discipline is about, you know, whether motivation is there or not, I'm going to do it anyway, even if I'm going to hate it. Every cell in my being doesn't want to engage in what I have to do, but I know that it's for my own good, so I'm going to do it. I couldn't agree more. Hands down. Subhan Allah.

You and I were discussing some things you also wanted to mention when it comes to manhood. So some hard things or hard truths about manhood that you have learned on your journey so far, what would you like to share with us?

Ishaq: 1:34:12

Well, the predominant narrative of what being a man means in the West, maybe this is true in other parts of the world as well, but they say it's about leading others, it's about being the boss and whatever. And there's some element of truth to that, although I think first and foremost, it's about leading yourself first. Because otherwise you're just a hypocrite. If you tell others to do X, Y and Z, but you yourself are doing the opposite, it shows a lot of hypocrisy, and that's not what being a man is about. Sometimes you have to delay your gratification or deny gratification, and hold tension between what you want and what's right. And we have what's right. We have the truth. So we have to hold firm to that and not compromise on our beliefs as Muslims. Yeah, that's how we become strong men. 

Since we're human and we are made in a way that we will fall, and it's important that you realize that, once you fall, it's not the end of the world. You have to get up as soon as you can and try again. Shaytan will try to convince you that it's just not worth it, and that you may as well just stay on the ground, but when you resign yourself to that voice, then  it becomes a spiral leading into all sorts of other self-destructive behaviors. So when you fall, get up as fast as you can. Make it like a time trial, you know, say “Okay, I fell, this time I got up, it took an hour. Next time, it'll take me 45 minutes. And the next time it'll take 30 minutes.” You know, make it a little contest. Compete with yourself to see how fast you can come back. And that's, yeah, that's how I see it. You gotta compete with yourself constantly. 

And you also have to fight for your future like it matters, because it does. We are on this earth for a limited amount of time, and we will come face to face with Allah one day, whether we like it or not. So build up your scale of good deeds and works and sacrifices that you put in. Start building it today, right? Because there will come a Day where all of that is going to matter. You can't put it off, because you don't know if you're even going to be here tomorrow, right? You might get into a tragic accident, so start today.

Waheed: 1:36:37

Subhan Allah. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. So when it comes to saying this, a lot of people would say, “Oh, this is easier said than done. Obviously, you know, life is not all about unicorns and butterflies, sometimes, most of the days are quite difficult and challenging.” Nowadays, we're living in very crazy times, and there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of anxiety, and that, coupled with our own challenges, makes things quite difficult. So if I were to ask you, what keeps you going, despite the challenges and the difficulties that you face, particularly with your personal challenges, your emotional and mental challenges, and all of the other responsibilities that you have going on in your life. What keeps you moving forward? 

Ishaq: 1:37:17

Well, what keeps me moving forward, I say, is the realization that the growth is proportional to your effort. So if you find it very difficult, then the rewards will be greater. If it's just extremely easy for you, like, if it's just a matter of getting up and pressing a button and then it's over, then why would the reward be great for doing that? Obviously, there has to be a cost associated with the thing. If you want the reward, you have to be willing to put in the work. And it's okay to say, “Oh, maybe I don't feel like it today.” But the fact that you did it anyway and you fought against that is rewarded. So that in itself too, our struggle, that tug of war between our nafs (self) and what we want to do is seen by Allah, He sees everything. So He sees every little attempt that you make. Every time you deny yourself from acting out and doing something that would be displeasing to Allah, He sees that, and He rewards that. So you have to constantly, constantly remind yourself of that, and keep your tongue moist with the remembrance of Allah. And realize that it's not against you, right? It's for you. It's for your own benefit. So whether you do it or not, Allah is not diminished in any way. You have to do it, because it's for your benefit, and trust that you will see the benefit, you will see the reward for it.

Waheed: 1:38:48

Amen, brother! Hands down! Subhan Allah. So, mashaAllah, you've shared with us a lot of gems and a lot of beautiful lessons, and I'm sure the listeners have appreciated all of these wonderful insights that you've shared with us. But if I were to ask you, you know, your journey with healing and recovery, with trauma, with relationships, with same-sex attraction, everything that you've been through until this moment, what has this journey taught you so far?

Ishaq: 1:39:19

Well, it's taught me that healing does not come from chasing what you crave, right? Because we often, because of the tricks that Shaytan will play on us, we will crave things that ultimately will lead to our destruction. So realizing that Allah knows better than you, and submitting to that, submitting to the fact that He knows what your soul needs, and chasing that instead. So, I mean, I used to think that love was just a thing to be consumed in order to fill a void, but, actually, there is no person that can fill that void for you. There's no thing that can fill that void for you. It's only Allah that can fill that void. So holding on to that as strong as you can, that is what I learned, that this dunya is just temporary, right? So whether it be a relationship or a person or a possession or whatever it is, you're gonna lose it someday, right? It's not gonna be there forever. We're all bound to die one day. So don't dedicate your life to those things. Dedicate your life to Allah. He'll be the One to give you strength.

Waheed: 1:40:49

Subhan Allah. Beautifully said. Thank you. We really appreciate that. You said, when it comes to the vision that you have for your life, you said you wanted to inshaAllah get married and you want to become a father, inshaAllah, may Allah facilitate that in the best of ways, and you want to be a strong and righteous man who gives more than he takes. So, you know, following that, my question would be, how do you envision yourself? What kind of husband, what kind of father would you aspire to be in the future inshaAllah? 

Ishaq: 1:40:54

I aspire to be a husband who leads with calm strength and presence. Someone whose wife feels safe, not just physically, but emotionally as well. And I want to be someone that she can laugh with, she can cry with, and we can build something together. And as for fatherhood, I mean, like I said multiple times now, this is just something that's been in me since I was a child. So I want to raise my kids with tenderness and structure. I want to be the kind of man whose children grow up knowing who Allah is, not just because they were taught, but because they saw it in the way that I carried myself. And I want to rewrite the script I inherited, to know that even if you have a trial, that doesn't have to define you, you don't have to build your whole identity around your trial, it's just a part of your story. It's not the whole thing.

Waheed: 1:42:00

Towards the end, I always like to ask my guests to think about certain people in their lives or certain archetypes. Is there anything that you would like to say to someone that you haven't had the chance to tell them so far? And that can be someone who is dear to you, someone who has contributed to your life in one way or the other, or it can be just a general message. So you have a couple of messages you wanted to share, but let me start with one thing you would like to tell your mom that you haven't been able to tell her. 

Ishaq: 1:42:37

Of course. I would tell her: Mom, I know you're worried about me all the time, more times than I could count, really. You didn't always understand what I was going through or what I was searching for, but I just need you to know that I'm okay, and I'm thriving, and it's all thanks to Allah. And this is not just in a surface level way that people usually say it, but in a deep soul level way. I have faith and I have direction and I have peace, even if the road to it hasn't always been peaceful. And you should know that the best parts of me, the parts that you love, the tenderness, the protectiveness, the drive to become a good father, those are the parts that I got from you. So thank you, and I hope one day I can repay it by giving my future kids the same love that you gave me.

Waheed: 1:43:27

InshaAllah. That is a beautiful message. Yeah, and when I ask you about what are the people that you would like to send messages to? You also mentioned a gay non-Muslim who is considering Islam, a Muslim who is struggling with SSA, as well as a liberal Muslim who is rationalizing acting out. So tell us a little bit more about these different groups of people and what messages you would like to give them?

Ishaq: 1:43:53

Sure, since I kind of went through multiple identities in my journey, I kind of relate to all of these people, so I did have very short messages for each. So first I would say to a gay non-Muslim who is maybe considering Islam, or even, in a more general sense, is considering the idea of God and who wants to build a relationship with Allah, I would say that you're not alone. This feeling of emptiness inside is something that actually everyone experiences, and the void is filled with God, and you're not going to find anything else that fills that void but God. So the story doesn't end with your feelings, and Islam doesn't erase you, it refines you.

Waheed: 1:44:38

MashaAllah. That's beautiful. And for a Muslim struggling with SSA?

Ishaq: 1:44:46

Right. I would tell them, to a Muslim struggling with SSA: Listen, there is a brotherhood out there waiting for you. Do not isolate yourself, that's the worst thing you could do. And struggle isn't shame, it's sacred, it's the Sunnah of Allah. We are meant to struggle in this life, so reach out and talk about it to someone who gets you.

Waheed: 1:45:06

Beautiful, well said. And what about a liberal Muslim who's rationalizing acting out?

Ishaq: 1:45:13

Yes. To him or her I would say: Listen, there's nothing brave about surrendering to your desire. Real bravery comes with restraint, and it's not easy, but it's worth it, and you will see the rewards to it if you submit yourself.

Waheed: 1:45:28

Brilliant. What about future wifey?

Ishaq: 1:45:35

I will quote one of the great poets of our generation, and I will say “Once you know what's lying underneath, judgment shows, but I'm not deceiving, and you choose how you want to see me.” She knows what it means.

Waheed: 1:45:48

Amen! Wonderful! That is very subtle, by the way, I love it! Subhan Allah, brother Ishaq, this has been a wonderful journey. These two hours flew by, subhan Allah, and I'm very honored to know you. We haven't, I mean, I don't think, before I started this podcast and kind of announced it, I don't think we've spoken before, and you reached out, you signed up for this new podcast, and ever since then, we've been kind of having conversations and chatting together, and it's been a wonderful journey to get to know you, to get to know more about your story, and how far you have come.And I would say I can speak on behalf of everyone listening to you that, masha Allah, we are proud of you. What you have been through is something very beautiful, and the connection that you have with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is something that we aspire to achieve. So, may Allah always bless you, protect you, and keep you in His protection and make you among His most beloved servants, because you have a heart of gold, mashaAllah, and it shows. We are all very proud of you, and we are honored to witness you, your beauty, your story, your presence, your honesty. This is a beautiful gift that you have given us today, and I can only hope that, inshaAllah, Allah paves the best way for you moving forward, and I hope we can all witness that, inshaAllah. 

So thank you for being here. You're a true gem. Is there anything you would like to say to the listeners before we end our episode today?

Ishaq: 1:47:23

Same to you, Waheed, ameen, and thank you so much and for you (may Allah grant you) even better. What you're doing for the community is so, so important. Please don't ever stop what you're doing, your work is so important, I can’t stress that enough. And to any other brothers out there, reach out to me on Discord, my name is L’Oie d’Ohm. It's a French name, so I don't know, maybe you can write out my Discord name in the description.

Waheed: 1:47:49

Absolutely, I'll do that.

Ishaq: 1:47:50

I would be glad to reach out and talk to any brothers who are considering Islam. Even if you're on the fence and you're not sure whether to take the leap or not, let's talk about it.

Waheed: 1:48:05

Wonderful, alright, jazakallah khair. Thank you very much. 

And with that we come to the end of today's episode. I hope you have enjoyed it and found value in the content. I would like to kindly ask you to hit the subscribe button, if you have not done so already, to make sure that you don't miss any episodes. And if you have enjoyed the podcast so far, please make sure to give us a good rating, as that helps make the podcast more visible for people. And if you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, roll over the link in the episode show notes and fill out the form. And if you have any questions or comments or suggestions, feel free to email me anytime on voicesfrombeyondthereinbow@proton.me. Talk to you in the next episode, inshaAllah. This has been Waheed Jensen in “Voices from Beyond the Rainbow”. Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.